fueradejuego
-
Posts
223 -
Joined
-
Last visited
Content Type
Profiles
Forums
Events
Store
Posts posted by fueradejuego
-
-
Sure it was mentioned on the anatomy of a disaster video that 30 of the victims were actually people who came in through the opened gate and went into the pen and within in minutes due to the force of the crush they ended up near the front of the pen.
It was confirmed around 30 of the victims were still outside of the ground at 14:45.
0 -
Fair enough, keep quoting the Taylor Repor, if you want to, but bear in mind, he was listening to the evidence of a corrupt police force.
Quite, that's an important point.
(And yet even operating mostly with all that evidence which we now know to have been systematically doctored, he still largely exonerated the fans, and that quote that HB keeps using was a preamble to him dismissing it as a significant factor.)
"There were youngsters influenced by drink and bravado pushing impatiently at the rear of the crowd thereby exacerbating the crush....But the more convincing police witnesses, including especially Detective Superintendent McKay and Chief Inspector Creaser as well as a number of responsible civilian witnesses, were in my view right in describing this element as a minority. Those witnesses attributed the crush to the sheer numbers of fans all anxious to gain entry"
It's the same paragraph.
My earlier post looked into this in more detail.
How many is a minority and at what point does a minority start to have an effect upon a crowd of thousands?
That will never be know but is the key issue.
10 bams causing a problem. No issue.
1,000 bams causing a problem then there is an issue.
Based upon Taylor's findings, I would suggest if the number of people causing problems etc was even in the hundreds, it would have been a significant contributory factor and would have been recorded more strongly within the report with perhaps even an indicative guess at the number.
That it was not, suggests to me, the number was insignificant and unlikely to be a cause.
0 -
Yes. I have already quoted the relevant section from the Taylor Report.
It's in Chapter 10.
"Had a decision to postpone kick-off been made and announced much of the frustration and with it the impetus crushing the crowd would have been reduced."
"In my view some officers, seeking to rationalise their loss of control, overestimated the drunken element in the crowd. There certainly was such an element. There were youngsters influenced by drink and bravado pushing impatiently at the rear of the crowd thereby exacerbating the crush. But the more convincing police witnesses, including especially Detective Superintendent McKay and Chief Inspector Creaser as well as a number of responsible civilian witnesses, were in my view right in describing this element as a minority. Those witnesses attributed the crush to the sheer numbers of fans all anxious to gain entry. There was no criticism of the crowd by any of the witnesses in the period up to 2.30 pm or even 2.35 pm. What happened then was not a sudden deterioration in the mood or sobriety of those assembled there. No doubt those coming behind would have had more to drink and would have included the unruly minority. But the crisis developed because this very large crowd became packed into a confined turnstile area and its very density hampered its passage through the turnstiles."
Not really, given that is has been established that there were a number of Liverpool fans behaving disgracefully at Hillsborough.
Liverpool fans at Hillsborough's poor behaviour was a contributory factor in the disaster.
You have to decide if you want to defend this behaviour or not, or characterise it as "normal football fan behaviour, nothing to see here" :-
"There were youngsters influenced by drink and bravado pushing impatiently at the rear of the crowd thereby exacerbating the crush."
I am not.
I suppose it depends upon how you interpret Taylor's report.
Immediately following the section which you highlight:-
"There were youngsters influenced by drink and bravado pushing impatiently at the rear of the crowd thereby exacerbating the crush."
The following comments of :-
"But the more convincing police witnesses, including especially Detective Superintendent McKay and Chief Inspector Creaser as well as a number of responsible civilian witnesses, were in my view right in describing this element as a minority. Those witnesses attributed the crush to the sheer numbers of fans all anxious to gain entry"
are arguably just as important. Of course minority is not quantified and that is the real issue.
Was the minority 10 bams or was it 100 bams within a crowd of thousands?
The problem now is we will never know but this section of the report provides ample space for both sides to interpret it as they see fit.
It's the section that is used to denigrate Liverpool fans but those who dislike the club etc. As I have said previously, I really don't care about Liverpool. I am completely indifferent to them but the manner in which myths etc have been perpetuated around this issue is what I find particularly appalling.
0 -
i'm sure i've seen video of crushing outside the ground. that is poor behaviour by the liverpool fans.
the bottom line is that liverpool fans were killed by crushing. the force of the crush was created by liverpool fans.
blaming the police and the fa for the deaths is the equivalent of blaming us airport security and the cia for 9//11.
Crushing outside the ground was a consequence of there being 23 turnstiles for 24,000 fans.
Too many fans, not enough turnstiles and a very cramped entrance area.
Externally, the situation was the result of a complete failure in management.
What I was interested in was what occurred in the tunnel area leading to the pens etc.
0 -
I agree to an extent. I don't think drunkenness is a factor at all, whether it was true or not. In fact it should really be the Liverpool fans trying to peddle the drunk fans line, as it might give some reason to explain why theose at the back behaved so badly.
The ticketless element is also a bit of a red herring, though again it could explain why some of those behaving so poorly did so (i.e. they wanted in quickly before their lack of a ticket could be established).
As you say though, neither of these things is parttcularly important and neither of them excuse the scumbaggery of some Liverpool fans.
The ticketless and drunken element has been addressed by Taylor and have rightfully been eliminated as you highlight.
Are there cited examples of the poor behaviour of Liverpool fans at Hillsborough recorded anywhere?
0 -
In terms of the Liverpool fans culpable, that ship has sailed really. There will be no way of identifying the culprits and they certainly aren't going to come forward. Usually I would say the guilt they must have felt over the years was punishment enough, but I suspect these wankers don't even think about their shameful behaviour. Maybe I do them a disservice. It would be nice to hear, even anonymously, some of them come out and apologise. They might well have been young men and we all make mistakes, albeit most of ours don't have such tragic consequences.
The chances of any apologies coming from these people, or introspective Liverpool fans' demands for it, is pretty much zero though. Which is a disgrace in itself.
This is the part where I disagree with you and I am genuinely interested in how this part of the tragedy could be investigated further.
How do you identify people who would have been pushing / jostling etc? How could you categorically state that certain people were pushing and not simply caught up in the momentum of the crowd?
Supposing CCTV identifies maybe 12 people who were being bams at the back of the crowd etc and pushing. What charges could you bring against them? Those at the back would have no way of knowing what was happening at the front.
I have been on the terracing at plenty of grounds when you cannot see what is happening in front of you or behind you and you get pulled along by the crowd whilst stewards and police take control of the situation by marshalling the crowd etc.
I imagine that any argument supporting the fans pushing would maybe need to revolve around cause and effect?
0 -
Have not read the thread, as I guess/fear how it may have gone... and it'll be interesting to see if anyone take issue with this... but for me the tragedy of Hillsborough is also the tragedy of English (even European) football in the 1980s.
Though particular elements unfortunately conspired to create such tragedy that day... the ground, the stand, the nature of fans arrival, the behaviour and 'decision-making' of the police... the ingredients had quietly brewed for years beforehand. In some cases decades. They could conceivably have combined at other matches at other grounds, not just Hillsborough that particular day.
Grounds were kept in poor repair, and crowd safety - entrances, exits, stewarding, access etc. - was not treated seriously. Hooliganism had led to the 'penning-in' of terracings, in order to prevent pitch invasions and fighting between rival supporters. That violence had also led to animosity between supporters and the police. All these problems were issues in themselves, but they conspired with the individual circumstances to create disaster.
In that particular respect, the coverup of the bungling decision-making and poor attitude of the police is seperate. It has sadly exacerbated and delayed the final acceptance of the tragic circumstances that created "The Hillsborough Disaster".
Clearly those who went about actively creating a cover-up should be brought to account. But for me, the tragedy - as opposed to the scandal - is the combination of ingredients which, in hindsight, was avoidable and yet inevitable.
Too often in the past, events like this were avoidable yet nobody took any action until such a tragedy occurred.
It's as if the authorities were either uninterested or so desensitised to matters that the only way for action to occur was when something as socking as this occurred.
0 -
That again points to the FA and asks the question why it was chosen as the venue.
Probably because it had been used previously.
Crowd safety at football games was not a particularly high priority in those days.
No pen had a capacity as there was no safety certificate.
You know all this was covered in Taylor's Final Report, thicko? Taylor's report indicated that Leppings Lane was unsuitable for the task at hand. It had also been remodeled since 1984, being split into more pens. This has been known for years.
Two stands were accessed through Leppings Lane. It was something ridiculously stupid like 25 turnstiles for 25,000 people.
0 -
and the reason the exit ate was opened was to relieve the crush happening from fans too impatient to get into the game, and too stupid to not add to the already dangerous problem happening at the turnstyle
The ground was unable to cope with the number of fans outside. The Lepping Lane entrance is quite confined with limited space anyway which would not have helped.
The ground did not even have a valid safety certificate.
0 -
To prevent people repeating lies, unchallenged, as for example fuerodejuego did on the previous thread about this, that the Liverpool fans were absolutely not at fault for the tragedy.
There are still people who believe this fallacy, proven by the fact that every single one of these threads attracts a few magee types, because they haven't actually read the Taylor Report, but have instead taken their truth from the Liverpool FC fans' propaganda machine.
This is the agenda the Hillsborough campaigners have pushed from the beginning. It's tainted their campaign in my view and undone a lot of the good work which has been done.
Firstly, get my name right
I don't like being lumped in with some of the people posting on here so I'll state my views on this.
Too many people in this debate become embroiled with whether or not the Liverpool fans are great / scum. That's irrelevant.
96 people went to see a game of football and never went home. The changes which were instigated by Taylor have made football a much better experience for all of us. That those improvements arose as a result of the disaster is a tragedy.
I accept that Liverpool fans would have been pushing and jostling both outside and then as they entered the stadium. My view is that the pushing etc stemmed initially from the mismanagement of the crowd at Leppings Lane which had too few turnstiles for such a large crowd.
Fans always turn up late for games and the scale of the Stand and number of fans trying to enter was going to create a logistical problem as it had done on previous occasions.
When the police panicked and opened up Gate C (I think from memory?) of course fans are going to move quickly into the ground and some would push etc.
The problems then arise from the fact that all fans were directed into the central pens and as they entered the pens from the tunnel, the gradient of the terracing was steep meaning you would pick up momentum. Once inside the pens, the barriers on the terracing were inadequate and, like the gradient, failed to meet the criteria of the Green Guide which dealt with safety matters etc at that time.
The game starts and more fans try to get in. They are directed towards the central pens and the problem keeps on mounting.
If Hillsborough had met the required safety standards and had been policed properly, there would still have likely been problems outside the ground simply due to the confined entrance area.
I don't believe the Liverpool fans are to blame for those reasons. I understand why some people can say that the Liverpool fans must take part of the blame etc and to be honest I don't really have a massive problem with saying they played a minor role etc in the tragedy. Some fans will have pushed but did they push as they moved onto the terracing and the gradient of the slope altered? Did they push forward when one of the barriers collapsed meaning there was movement forward? Or were they just people desperate to see their team in the FA Cup semi final? I'm not suggesting that any fan deliberately pushed for malevolent reasons though.
To then place a percentage value of the blame on anyone would be completely arbitrary.
Some on here will disagree with my views. As mentioned above, I don't have an issue in a discussion where,to all intents and purposes, we're splitting hairs. What I do have an issue with is the constant peddling of crap around the issue such as "it was caused by ticketless fans" or the "fans were all pished" etc
Hopefully, today will mark the beginning of the end of the discussion.
0 -
Chalres Patterson on SSN "Rangers play Brechin a week on Saturday in the Ramsdens Challenge Cup. What a come down for the 54 times champions of Scotland".
Wut? As far as I'm aware they have never played a game on Scottish soil.I understood it being Sevco away to Stennie.
Sevco replace Stranraer in the league and surely that would extend to Ramsdens Cup?
0 -
A good article.
The outcome (thus far) of this saga has potentially wider implications than just football in the manner in which the fans have positively affected the outcome.
At a time when the wee guy is routinely pished upon by corporate interests in society, action and outcomes like these can restore your faith.
0 -
I just had a read of the Daily Record online.
I have seldom read such sycophantic crap as that written today about the impending vote at Hampden.
A few of us on here may be old enough to remember Jim Traynor writing for the Herald. He was actuually decent back then but he is now a shadown or the writer he was back then.
The Record's "research" appears to openly contradict much of what is already in the public domain. It's surreal that a paper can be so out of touch with what fans / readers are actively telling them.
0 -
Given the tendency for the media to ignore what is happening and print what they like, I found this piece in the Telegraph this morning, rather refreshing:-
0 -
STV reporting Brechin will vote yes to Rangers in SFL 1 tomorrow.
0 -
Can someone advise me on the percentage of TV money that Rangers and Celtic received last season?
0 -
The SPL will obviously defer a vote forcing the SFL to make a decision and tidy up a mess which they played no part in creating.
If the SFL vote Sevco 5088 into the 1st division, the SPL have no need to meet and formally vote.
if the SFL vote Sevco 5088 into the 3rd division, it's a certainty the SPL will then convene a meeting and re-admit Rangers to the SPL with a series of sanctions.
What should the SFL do when they meet next week?
Why not follow the lead of the SPL?
Defer a decision on Rangers and force the SPL to decide.
0 -
My mate and I are cycling around Arran on Sunday 15th.
It's the longest cycle we will have done - think it's 5 miles longer than Edinburgh to Glasgow?
Anyway, any pointers etc what to do, what not to do, places to stop for food etc.
All advice greatly received
0 -
http://footballspeak...h-football.aspx
An article posted a couple of days ago. He seems like an alright chap...
That boy has potential
0 -
There's some decent lamb still in the freezer...
It will be tinned mince in future.
0 -
Who would win a fight between Ghandi and Craig Whyte?
That's the real issue here.
0 -
A group of us did Edinburgh to Glasgow on Saturday.
Good day for it.
Total distance of 59miles and total time of 6hrs 30mins. We stopped off for about 40mins at both the Falkirk Wheel and The Stables in Kirkie so actual ride time was more likely to be around 5hrs.
Next cycle is around Arran.
Anyone done this recently?
Looking at arriving off the 10.40 ferry and then leaving on the 16.40 ferry.
Is 6hrs sufficent time to get around including a couple of decent stops?
On a mountain bike with slicks. I am usually comfortable at around 14/15mph.
0 -
I thought you could buy beer within the stadium...
You could buy 2 litres of beer at Hertha but it was 8 euros.
Bottles and Cans in the U Bahn station were 2 / 3 euros each.
0 -
Took us about 45minutes from Brandenburg Gate to the ground via the U Bahn.
The searches at the turnstiles are a nuisance especially if you have various cans of lager hidden as my mate did. He even had a can under his Russian style fur hat.
0
Random Matches You Are Going To...
in Misc Other Fitba Chat
Posted
Anyone been to FC Copenhagen before?
Over in Denmark in a few weeks time and I've already bought tickets for a game. Stadium looks quite tidy.
Any advice about where to go before the game etc?