[Drug deaths in Scotland hit record high]

2 minutes ago, The Moonster said:

A lot less than they used to have. There are also less young people getting involved in drugs and less people dying of HIV. It's also allowed the police to spend time chasing down the actual traffickers of drugs rather than the user on the street, which means less people in jail and the costs associated with that reduced. They now have the lowest rate of lifetime marijuana use in people over 15 in the EU. Heroin use in teenagers dropped from 2.5% to 1.8%. They also have comprehensive drug treatment programme which gets folk back into "normal" life.

Stick dem facts in your syringe and inject it right into your brain.

So still junkies and still crimes perpetrated by junkies.

You'll forgive me if I don't regard heroin use in teenagers of 1.8% as something to be proud of.

[Drug deaths in Scotland hit record high]

1 minute ago, oneteaminglasgow said:

 

That’s not what I asked.

Do you think that people’s actions are, to at least some extent, shaped by the society they find themselves in and their experiences of it?

 

I think these would form part of a thought-process but I don't see it should shape their actions. 

[Drug deaths in Scotland hit record high]

3 minutes ago, The Moonster said:

Eh, yes you do. Honestly, go and read some info on it.

 

He would have a point if anyone at all, at any point in this thread, said that junkies should be absolved of the crimes they commit. If they commit crimes then they deserve punishment for it - addiction does not excuse that, but if they have an addiction they deserve support to get out of that addiction as well. I have no idea why people are struggling with the difference there.

Does Portugal have junkies?

[Drug deaths in Scotland hit record high]

2 minutes ago, oneteaminglasgow said:

 

Leaving aside the rest of the stuff you’ve posted, do you believe that people’s actions take place in a vacuum, or do you think that people’s actions are shaped and informed by the circumstances which they find themselves in and life experiences which they’ve had?

 

I believe people are individuals who have responsibility for their own actions and have the ability to differentiate right from wrong. 

[Drug deaths in Scotland hit record high]

1 minute ago, The Moonster said:

I love facts. The facts show that the "War on Drugs" is a failure and you're an advocate of waging an even bigger war on drugs, despite no evidence that this actually works.

I can point you towards Portugal and the decriminalisation studies they've done if you'd like facts on a policy that does actually work, if you'd like?

I love facts too. Here are some facts for you. 

Being a junkie is a choice.

Individuals are responsible for their own actions and the consequences of those actions.

Junkies are responsible for a lot of crime.

To get rid of that crime we need to get rid of junkies.

You don't get rid of junkies by decriminalising drugs.

 

[Drug deaths in Scotland hit record high]

3 minutes ago, The Moonster said:

You could just say "I can't provide you with the post you're requesting as it doesn't exist" and this would be much easier.

Sure. But I thought you'd prefer facts. Apologies if I'm wrong.

[Drug deaths in Scotland hit record high]

1 minute ago, The Moonster said:

I've been reading the thread. You made the claim that folk are trying to absolve junkies of all blame, I asked you to back that up and you can't. There are plenty of posts giving reasons as to how people become junkies, but none of those posts say that the person themselves isn't partly to blame.

You clearly don't understand what addiction is. It's not the same for everyone.

I haven't seen many posts where it's said that the individual is entirely to blame. I have seen plenty of posts where the intent is to deflect from this.

I think most people understand what addiction is. It's a voluntary thing.

[Drug deaths in Scotland hit record high]

3 minutes ago, renton said:

Being inherently predisposed to addiction doesn't mean you can't control the impulse with the correct support and treatment. A combination of inherited and outside social factors might push you into that hole, but it requires a wider intervention to get you back out of the hole to a degree where you can function. Throwing the book at people when they are in the bottom of the hole will not help get them out, nor will it serve to prevent them committing further crimes to further their addiction.

So these impulses simultaneously can and can't be controlled?

[Brexit slowly becoming a Farce.]

27 minutes ago, MixuFixit said:

Shakespeare would write a play about all of this.

Alan Ayckbourn surely?

[Drug deaths in Scotland hit record high]

1 minute ago, Dons_1988 said:

Well they'd probably say if they have an inherent destructive nature why are you leaving them to rot and repeat the exact same thing again.

Or do you just want to lock them all up? Euthanasia?

Which part of inherent are you not getting?

[Drug deaths in Scotland hit record high]

6 minutes ago, Dons_1988 said:

I'm sure many victims of crimes perpetrated by junkies would be unhappy at a policy of just leave the junkies to it.

Explain to them that junkies have inherent destructive impulses and they'll understand. Who wouldn't?

[What is the point of labour ?]

2 minutes ago, BawWatchin said:

Propaganda and reality are the same thing in the mind of an anti-socialist.

They're all swayed by corporate media and are then too embarassed to admit when they've fallen for it, yet again.

[Drug deaths in Scotland hit record high]

1 minute ago, renton said:

If addiction were a choice it wouldn't be called addiction.

If it wasn't a choice we'd all be addicts. Or none of us would be.

[Drug deaths in Scotland hit record high]

2 minutes ago, renton said:

 

 

No you don't.

Ever stricter and harsher penalties for breaking the law have never once stopped a crime. The existence of Death Row would be a cursory proof of that even if multiple studies on the effects of incarceration on recidivism didn't exist. 

The penalties for transgressions are incarceration - the removal of freedom, but those penalties need to be weighted in such a way that those being penalised benefit in the long term. In the case of drug addictions we can penalise people for the crimes they commit in order to fuel their addictions but it does nothing to alleviate the underlying issues of their addictions, without which actions you will simply repeat the cycle ad nauseam.

People don't just stop being Junkies, willpower alone is insufficient to the task. We need to treat addiction like the health issue it is. 

Why do you obsess about the perpetrators of crime and not the victims? You're clearly intelligent but woefully misguided.

Addiction isn't a health issue. It's a choice.

[Drug deaths in Scotland hit record high]

2 minutes ago, Ross. said:

If you are ever robbed or mugged by a junkie, and have to face some very painful consequences as a result, then that's just tough.

I'd absolve that particular junkie of all blame associated to the robbing and or mugging.

You're a lunatic.

[Drug deaths in Scotland hit record high]

5 minutes ago, renton said:

It's not about absolution because fundamentally the criminal justice system shouldn't be predicated on punishment. 

It most certainly should be. There have to be penalties for transgressing society's rules.

[Drug deaths in Scotland hit record high]

2 minutes ago, renton said:

It's not about absolution because fundamentally the criminal justice system shouldn't be predicated on punishment. It should be predicated on rehabilitation to the degree that this is possible, and only after that incarceration to protect the rest of society.

You don't want to stop people being Junkies. You want to punish them for being Junkies.

I want to prevent people being junkies. I want to prevent people being the victims of crime.

[Drug deaths in Scotland hit record high]

2 minutes ago, The Moonster said:

Point out one post where it says junkies should be absolved of all blame. Just one post will do.

On a totally unrelated note, do you drink coffee?

Read this thread. There are plenty of posts attempting to direct blame away from junkies. Apparently inherent destructive impulses are the latest to blame.

No.

[Drug deaths in Scotland hit record high]

Just now, renton said:

Almost everyone has inherent destructive impulses, and almost everyone has to a lesser or greater degree a vulnerability to addiction in some form or another. When society leaves people behind, when it denies people a constructive outlet then people tend to spiral into those destructive influences. It literally could be anyone of us at any given time. It doesn't apply to the entirety of the addict population by any means, but weighing policies that help the former even if it means going easier on the latter is by far a more productive approach.

There's always an excuse. If it isn't society, the economy or Thatcherism it's inherent destructive impulses.

Which would be a great name for a metal band.

[Drug deaths in Scotland hit record high]

Just now, The Moonster said:

Nobody has ever said that junkies are blameless. 

Plenty of people on this thread are going out of their way to absolve junkies of blame. 

[Drug deaths in Scotland hit record high]

4 minutes ago, Dons_1988 said:

Tibbermoresaint is absolutely right, we'd be a lot better off if people just stopped doing all the things that causes problems in the world.

At last 

[Drug deaths in Scotland hit record high]

2 minutes ago, renton said:

Of course there is personal responsibility, but we also each have a shared responsibility to each other. That's the foundation of every collective endeavour in human history, from the Church to the Nation State. The space between those two poles is a place where the vulnerable are liable to get crushed, and how we weigh those competing impulses says a lot about us. Indeed, the collective will is a control loop, designed to smooth out the peaks and dips caused by individual behaviour. People who land in a cesspit of their own making should be helped up as far as is possible not just for their sake but for our own. It's in our enlightened self interest to reduce their suffering because it leads to less overall suffering in society and in terms of resources spent.

There is evidence based approaches that bare this out. In the face of that, to want to continue to stomp on these people is not a reasoned judgement on the efficacy of competing responses but a moral judgement based on your revulsion for them.

 

Absolutely we have a shared responsibility to each other. Part of that is treating ourselves and others with respect, which means not being a junkie. 

[What is the point of labour ?]

2 minutes ago, BawWatchin said:

No. That's just what your propaganda box wants you to believe. It is really it that is insulting you by insulting your intelligence.

 

 

 

Or lack of.

Saying that people are too stupid to understand the difference between reality and propaganda isn't insulting them?

[Drug deaths in Scotland hit record high]

1 minute ago, The Gifted Sub said:

 

Genuinely flabbergasted.

 

What do you think causes the problems caused by people taking drugs?

[Drug deaths in Scotland hit record high]

1 minute ago, Moomintroll said:

Renton, there is no point trying to reason with this guy, he is an angry seething mess who just wants to fight everyone around this for reasons that I cannot ascertain.He should have been out of here last night for the disgusting personal attack he made on a poster, if we all ignore him he will eventually go back to the Dundee thread to continually accuse Biggie of being a racist & we can all go back to what passes for normality round here.

Is it sanctimony hour? Already?