Arthur Stramash
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Posts posted by Arthur Stramash
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Great posts Paquis and Cliche Guevara regarding the blog piece. Enjoyed reading your views and the spirit in which you expressed them.
The blog was fascinating for me because of the way the writer agreed with the legal result even though he is in principle opposed to the outcome. But also the way he pointed out how unusal it was for a dissenting opinion to fill more than half of the judgement.
There is probably is a lot more to come and, as someone pointed out, if these are are now judged to have been genuine loans then they can perhaps be recalled. That would put upward of £40m in the pot for the creditors of oldco and may just see the debts paid. I expect most Rangers fans would like to see that happen.
I believe Murray got £6m and someone like Campbell Ogilvie £90,000. Neither of these two gents are short of a bob or two so what a terrific gesture it would be for them to set an example and pay back their loans. They might start the ball rolling. If these loans were paid back voluntarily by the recipients - and not litigated back via BDO - it would be an act almost worthy of 5 stars on the royal blue jersey.
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Fascinating stuff.
Who's behind this piece? Obviously they'll be dismissed as a tarrier with an agenda, but it makes interesting reading and makes me feel slightly less pessimistic about the title stripping prospects.
I think he's a retired legal type who understands the language that the judgement is written in. He's made some very perceptive contributions to various blogs. Stuart Cosgrove mentioned him once on Off the Ball. I doubt if anyone in the press could pen a piece as thoughtful and nuanced as this. Yes, not all is as it seems at first glance.
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Wow, it's like that match was played in Switzerland. Home crowd booing Murray? No wonder he wanted out of there. Okay, Federer did good. Bravo Roger. Murray's second tournament indoors this year certainly didn't go well, hasn't served all week. But home support?
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Finally, a journalist who dares tell it like it is. Bravo.
May have been posted already but there are about ten pages since I last checked. Good stuff from Roger Mitchell in the Herald today:
Link - http://www.heraldsco...a-look.18857922
Does Green actually buy this stuff? Let's take a look
Roger Mitchell
For someone who claimed the Scottish Premier League was a really bad idea a few weeks ago, I found myself surprised that I felt the strong urge to defend my former organisation in the face of the bombast from Charles Green.
inShare0Custom byline text: Roger Mitchell I truly hope by the time that this is read, someone officially representing the SPL will have done likewise. I ask myself, does Green actually buy this stuff? Let's take a look:
Claim 1 Rangers ceased to be subject to the SPL's rules when they were ejected from their league.
Contextual targeting label: Block list Fact Rangers oldco was not ejected from the SPL. The fact that Rangers went into liquidation automatically expelled them from the league. The SPL shareholders then decided not to make an exception and let them back in. Two very different things.
Claim 2 The outcome of the SPL's process will have no legal effect.
Fact What the SPL are deciding upon is whether their tournament and their trophy was assigned to the correct club in the years in question.
The SPL have every right to examine whether participants in their competition behaved within the rules. And if they find they haven't, they can apply their rule book as recourse. More Green nonsense.
I do, however, agree with him that "whatever decision they reach is a decision of the SPL". Indeed. But the SPL should be proud of that, and not hide behind the Law Lords.
The SPL are examining the conduct of the participants in their competition well before Rangers went into liquidation, in particular the conduct of the club then owned by Sir David Murray, with the club secretary role (in charge of those player registrations) held by Campbell Ogilvie (whatever happened to him?). Charles Green and Sevco have nothing to do with this. Whatsoever.
Claim 3 The new owners purchased all the business and assets of Rangers, including titles and trophies.
Fact Green said on June 2012 that if his CVA proposal was to fail (which it did) and Rangers were to be liquidated (which they are), "the history, the tradition, everything that's great about this club is swept aside".
Therefore he admits he has not purchased titles and trophies. Sevco has no titles and trophies.
By the way, Charles, I would not provoke commentators like me to dig this up, because what you said is not what the Rangers fans want to hear now, as you now correctly realise. Let it lie, Charlie, let it lie.
So, even one with a leaning towards Govan would argue that, under the most superficial scrutiny, Green's attack is less than robust. But sometimes you have to chuck a dog a bone. So, to be fair, Charlie is right with his complaint on the SPL's lack of consistency,
Green states: "The SPL took part in discussions regarding the new company's league status, where 'the EBT issue' would be dealt with as part of a package of sanctions which would be implemented in return for membership.
"We do not accept that people who are willing to come to an agreement on such matters then have a right to instigate a full-blown inquisition when matters do not unfold as they thought they would."
Sadly this falls into the general shambles of the management of the affair by the SFA/SPL. I made my own view clear on the leadership of both bodies in the summer. But I cannot see how the credibility of the current process on a simple point of law over false registration of players with Employee Benefit Trusts (being handled by independent top QCs) can be derailed by claims that the prosecutor behaved incoherently months earlier.
Good debating point, Charles, but it's not enough. Instead, all of us who love the game and who hold true sporting values in our hearts have a simple question: Did Rangers oldco gain unfair advantage by registering players on a basis where their full employment conditions were not declared to the SPL/SFA?
In my mind the answer is undoubtedly 'yes'. But let's not forget the lessons of Versailles: bloodlust rebounds.
The SPL enquiry punishment doesn't arouse great passion in me. And it shouldn't either for Celtic fans. For them I'd argue the victory is in the fact that their greatest rival died.
The 125-year long struggle ended with the collapse of the adversary. The war was won. Achilles vanquished Hector.
In closing, from Mark Anthony onwards history tells us that well-crafted oratory can influence the mob.
While Charles Green is no great speaker or statesman, I must admit, he is no dummy. And there is no doubt that his audience is the mob, whose money and favour he needs in order to exit the Rangers investment project with a financial return.
Stoking up hatred has always energised "the base", another example of which we saw in the Republican convention in these days.
Well done, Charles. Initial Public Offering of shares here we come.
For Scottish football, the days of enlightenment around the Tommy Burns funeral are long gone, and I fear the worst.
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They weren't actually relegated to the SFL, although that is effectively the result.
They were expelled from the SPL (due to the transfer of share being rejected), and applied for the vacancy in the SFL. As a result of Dundee moving up to the SPL, and others shuffling into D1 and D2 to replace them, this vacancy was in D3.
So actually Rangers were relegated to limbo from the SPL, and promoted to SFL3 from limbo.
I believe that is exactly what happened, although for limbo I would use the term non-existence. Otherwise Rangers would have transferred to Rangers which, as someone as pointed out, is simply not possible.
The only hope for the original club and its history (that I can see) is if the liquidators nullify the administration and sale by Duff & Phelps. On the face of it there appears to have been enough dodgy dealing for this to happen.
The whole argument of the Blue Knights towards the end was that unless the CVA route was open then the historical continuity would be lost. It was the only chance to save the club. To get around this Duff & Phelps appear to have convinced Green that they've sold him Rangers' history - well, minus the historic debt. But perhaps Green did not need much convincing. He'd been sniffing around for a long time, there's also rumours that he was somehow in league with Whyte. He certainly had an easier time doing a £1 (or was it £2?) deal with Whyte than the Knights. It appears Charlie was Whyte's chosen as were Duff & Phelps. But that must all be totally co-incidental, surely?
The rule-bending by the SFA to accomodate Green's Sevco company and pretend that it's still Rangers is muddying the waters. It may also backfire on Charles Green if he is accused of merely phoenixing Rangers, along with others, as a tax dodge. To be honest, to the man in the street, it looks very much to be exactly that.
But if this stands, and the liquidators cannot or will not do anything to recompense creditors, then there is nothing to stop any debt-ridden club in the UK going into administration, hiring helpful administrators - who do not necessarily put creditors first - and when an impossible CVA is rejected, have someone ready to buy the assets + history at an unusually-low knock-down price, and Bob's your uncle. After which, of course, the admins pay themselves a large chunk of dosh, courtesy of the creditors. Nice work, if you can get it (and avoid jail).
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Did they actually tell you that they had not been appointed as the forthcoming liquidators?
I understood that the prize money was actually withheld because of old Rangers outstandng debts to several Scottish clubs. And that seems to have put the cat among the European pigeons as Rapid want their outstanding Jelavic cash. And there's the creditors pot which seems rather empty. You'd have thought D&P could have got a fair few quid for the players who ended up out of contract. Davis, McGregor, Naismith, and the others could have brought in at least £5m to the pot. I reckon D&P may have some serious questions to answer.
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Reality? We don't even have a liquidator appointed.
There's a reason for that, too, you know
This was reported on June 13 regarding those non-appointed liquidators for old Rangers:
Malcolm Cohen and James Stephen from financial company BDO have been appointed as Joint Liquidators.
"The liquidators will seek to protect any remaining assets, maximise recoveries for the benefit of creditors and investigate the reasons behind the failure of the company."
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Chardy played great. Shortened the points, was aggressive and it worked. He played very well the previous match too.
Murray was spraying shots and looked less than up for it. Looked windy on the fast court. But if he'd got to 5-5 it may have tipped back in his favour.
Probably better losing to Chardy now than to one of the other top seeds later.
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Tried a VPN before but it gave other problems.
Just tried another from Cnet. Didn't even get Mr Shoutyman.
Tried radioplayer, Shoutyman was waiting for me.
Thanks for your response.
Otherwise the app TuneIn Radio is good. Usually works fine and the pay version lets you record programmes.
At the moment only some BBC stations stream without the guy with the annoyng voice. Must be Olympic broadcast rights or something that blocks foreign IPs.
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Here we go...........
I'm trying to listen to Off the Ball on t'internet.
Normally I can do it but today there is a bad man with
a loud voice shouting at me, saying I can't.
I presume it's the same for everyone else outside UK.
This shouting all began as the Olympics started. Hopefully the BBC will stream again after.
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I'm still waiting on an answer as to how they can facilitate staying in business when playing outrageous wages, stadium costs etc, with no obvious business plan in place.
A lot of us are waiting for the answer to that. The massive tax dodge and the stiffing of creditors associated with the dumping of the old and the creation of new Rangers looks criminal. Very little to be proud of if you've ever followed the club.
Who knows, the thing might fold by Christmas or the liquidators take some drastic action? After all, Green and Duff & Phelps look to have walked off with the valuables that could have been sold to pay outstanding debts.
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Why does it follow that we must get more pleasure from OF defeats than our own teams winning?
The point was about Gers fans apparently enjoying Dundee United's difficult draw. Something which is kind of pathetic on their part.
Every Scots team that loses in Europe lessens other club's chances of European football. Those fans who enjoy seeing a loss for DU, Well, Saints, or Celtic this season should realise that those losses affect all of Scottish football. Countries like Scotland can lose automatic entry into Euro cups.
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I used to live by the rule that I only support my own team in Scotland but all Scottish teams in Europe.
It's the way most us feel I reckon, apart from the few who get greater pleasure from seeing others lose than their own team winning
If that's true about the ex-Gers forums they will only alienate proper football fans from their cause even more, if that's possible.
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.... but I'd like to see us acknowledge the few mediea guys who have stood tall during this fiasco and held onto their own beliefs in the face of mounting scorn.
Please take a bow
Mr Stuart Cosgrove of bbc radio Scotland
Gets right into folk without fear of media bans and refuses to bow to pressure
Mr Jim Spence of bbc radio Scotland
Very clear on his viewpoint and the first to publicly demand severe action be taken against oldco and stood firm on forums day after day reiterating and defending his position.
Agreed. Stuart and Jim have been outstanding.
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Green Shock: On His Way To Top Greek Post
Reuter News July 30, 2012: 11.30GMT
"Rangers new supremo Charles Green made no secret of the fact that he was a short-term appointment. But no one on the blue side of Glasgow expected his reign to end so soon. According reports in today's Athens broadsheet 'Megacheatos', foreign affairs expert, Constantos Brokos, has confirmed that the country has employed the southern European offices of Duffos & Thelphos to handle Greece's bankruptcy and liquidation. And the shock news for Gers' fans is that Greece is now seeking to tempt Charles Green away from Glasgow. His new job will be to oversee the process of 'Greece doing a Rangers'.
"The Greeks plan to create a 'newco country', to be known initially as Sevkocos 5099, thus off-loading the crippling national debt burden via the old nation. 'Old Greece' will then simply disappear. Sevkocos 5099 will then transfer the name and 'history' of Greece to the new holding company which will then become known as 'Greece' - to avoid any confusion for Greeks. It is thought that Green will play a key role in negociations together with an as yet unnamed group of investors. A spokesman for Green has said: 'By year's end we hope to have the most robust economy in Europe. Let the nations of Germany, France, Italy and the UK check their balance sheets. All those nations who kicked us when we were down by asking us to pay our bills will be sorry.'
"Mr Green who has recently reformed Rangers as a debt-free club, is now being sought far and wide for financial advice. It is even rumoured that he has had discussions with the US to create a 'Phoenix America'. The America of today is currently crippled by the world's biggest debt mountain. 'Charlie's our type of guy,' a White House spokesman said. 'In one clean break with the past we can plan for a confident future with the Green Plan. Our Chinese debt will vanish overnight. The guy's a genius. We've got to hand it to you Brits.'
"A Rangers spokesman has told Reuter News that the now debt-free club can understand that Green is much sought after but will fight any attempt by Greece or the US to prize Green away. 'Although a number of fans are still uneasy about his surname,' a club spokesman said, 'We believe they are in the minority.' He continued by saying, 'As a club we have protested in the strongest possible terms to Greece and the US. You can't just cheat people out what is rightfully theirs. It's unheard of.' Fans groups have once again sprung into action and boycotts are being arranged of all things Greek. People with very dark hair, anyone eating kebabs, restaurants, youghurt and even Feta cheese are high on the boycott list - as is anyone whose name ends with 'os' or 'isis'. The Greek foreign ministry denies it is attempting to 'bugger Rangers'."
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A Glebe Park Gallery:
Funny stuff.
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Is Off The Ball on today?
12.02 today ... Hopefully some petty and ill-formed sanity after this week.
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In 1900 due to financial and other problems, Dumbarton FC ceased to be and their membership of the Scottish League lapsed.
In 1908 a completely new Dumbarton FC was formed and applied successfully for membership of the Scottish League. The new club had no business connection with the old one.
However they played at the same ground, used the same crest and colours and assumed the honours (including two league championships and a Scottish Cup win) and history of the old club.
People appear to have just kind of accepted that.
Can't see the HMRC, the SFA, the club's creditors, those investigating the possible illegal use of EBTs, and the slightly secretive Green team just getting off with the authorities saying, 'Oh well, as you were, but don't let it happen again.'
Though I suppose whatever new club the majority of supporters get behind will be perceived as a continuation of the Gers, by the fans at least. In one sense, fans probably see themselves as the club, since players, managers, and even business entities come and go.
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Didn't this fuckwit post on here-
@Frank_Bear: Bears calling Rangers Newco need a booted on the face.
Union flag-waving, violent morons would never remind you of the BNP, would they?
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From The Sun:
'An independent Appellate Tribunal will now meet to rubber-stamp the transfer of membership.'
Spot the deliberate mistake ...
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Is this now 'The wisbit Thread'?
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Hardly surprising as there isn't any prices available for them yet.
No, there aren't. The only ones sold, to my knowledge, have been via direct debit and perhaps some very true blue fans forking out, regardless. Hence, not many season tickets sold.
Add to that the campaign to boycott the STs, the point was: What are the current losses and for how long can Green sustain them?
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If we take Green at face value (it may be a stretch to do so), then his objective is to make money, and do it as quickly as possible ... Anyway, assuming Sevco doesn't go into administration in the next 6 months, time will tell!
Yes, he insisted from the off that he, personally, was in it only for the short term, and that he saw it as a business investment.
Still no licence though, not many season tickets sold, the millions from players he thought he could horse trade look unlikely.
I'm wondering what the losses are at the present time? It must cost a few quid just to keep Ibrox open, football or not.
As some have said, maybe he doesn't want a licence and is positioning himself to fail? He could sell to yet another group and still make a profit for himself. Or do they just want to trade the property?
The thick plottens!
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Walking Down The Halbeath Road
in Scottish Championship General Chatter
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Pars fans, ignore the taunting of the petty, small-minded, bitter quintessential fools who now follow one of the Sevco's (though nobody actually one knows which Sevco) after their club's demise and liquidation.
Fight the good fight, keep hope alive.