Afrojim
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Posts posted by Afrojim
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1. East Kilbride
2. Kelty Hearts
3. Bonnyrigg Rose
4. BSC Glasgow
5. East Stirlingshire
6. Civil Service Strollers
7. Spartans
8. Edusport Academy
9. Stirling University
10.Edinburgh University
11.Cumbernauld Colts
12.Berwick Rangers
13.Gala Fairydean
14.Vale of Leithen
15.Dalbeattie
16.Gretna0 -
1. Edinburgh City
2. Cove Rangers
3. Stirling Albion
4. Queen's Park
5. Elgin City
6. Brechin City
7. Cowdenbeath
8. Annan Athletic
9. Albion Rovers
10.Stenhousemuir0 -
1. Raith Rovers
2. Peterhead
3. Falkirk
4. Clyde
5. Montrose
6. Forfar
7. Airdrie
8. East Fife
9. Stranraer
10.Dumbarton0 -
1. Dundee United
2. Inverness CT
3. Partick Thistle
4. Dundee
5. Ayr United
6. Arbroath
7. Dunfermline
8. Morton
9. Queen of the South
10.Alloa0 -
1. Celtic
2. Aberdeen
3. Rangers
4. Motherwell
5. Hibs
6. Hearts
7. Kilmarnock
8. Ross County
9. Hamilton Accies
10. St. Mirren
11. St. Johnstone
12. Livingston
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On 13/07/2018 at 18:46, Kelheart said:
I’m a big believer in 3 foreigners rule so happens we were doing all right at that time in history gotta get more Scots playing at top level in the top league instead of below average imports sucking clubs dry in wages they can ill afford to pay
There is no correlation between number of foreign players playing in a domestic league and the success of national teams. The positive effect of the 3 foreigner rule is a myth which pops up from time to time only to be thoroughly dispelled by statistical analysis conducted by many different institutions.
The period in history you're referring too when Scotland regularly qualified for major tournaments has nothing to do with less foreign players in the Scottish domestic league and a lot to do with the fact that there was far less competition. Since the collapse of communism in the late 80's/early 90's and the break up of former Yugoslavia 14 of the 25 current UEFA members which made up the old Eastern Bloc have qualified for either the Euro's or World Cup (or both). Scotland have failed to qualify since 1998, there is an obvious correlation there. Additionally, a couple of the old Eastern Bloc countries (Lithuania & Georgia) which haven't managed to qualify for major tournaments thus far have been a particular thorn in Scotland's side when we've been attempting to qualify. Add in the fact that many other European nations have transitioned from a semi-pro to a full-time set up in recent decades, the Scandinavian nations for example, and it's easy to see why we're finding it much more difficult to qualify for tournaments. With the increased competition it's difficult to know whether or not we've become worse than we were in the past or had an over inflated sense of how good we thought we were back then. Also, if there was a correlation between a lower number of foreign players in each league and national team success then the Soviet Union, Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, Poland etc, would have been dominant during the communist era because they had next to no foreigners playing in their domestic leagues.
The 3 foreigner rule is an issue in Scotland though but not for the reasons that most people conclude. It's going to seem like i'm contradicting myself for a wee bit here until I fully explain what I mean. We have 12 teams in the top flight and they will use about 20 players a season regularly. So that's 240 squad places about half of which are taken by foreign players. So that's a 120 places for Scottish players in the top flight give or take. However, the issue isn't foreign players coming to play here it's the lack of Scottish players going to play elsewhere. The issue is a lack of emigration not immigration. The top 10 countries in Europe that have the highest number of expatriate footballers playing in foreign countries are:
1. France (821 expatriate players playing abroad) - Euro 2016 Runners-Up and WC Finalists 2018
2. Serbia (760) - WC Group Stage 2018
3. England (413) - WC Semi-finalists 2018
4. Spain (361) - WC Winners 2010, Euro Champions 2008 & 2012
5. Croatia (346) - WC Finalists 2018
6. Germany (346) - WC winners 2014
7. Portugal (261) - Euro 2016 Champions
8. Netherlands (256) - WC Runners-up 2010
9. Belgium (220) - WC Semi-Finalists 2018
10. Ukraine (182) - WC Quarter-Finalists 2006
23. Scotland (103) - 20 years without qualifying for a major tournament and counting.
Croatia is the country on that list that has a population size most similar to ours. Croatia have more players playing regular first-team football outside of Croatia than they do inside Croatia. Croatian clubs move loads of their players onto other countries and then replace them with either players from their own academy, players from smaller Croatian clubs or if deemed necessary they will bring in foreign players. They are constantly expanding the overall number of players to choose from for the national side and providing a pathway to the top for domestically based players with potential... and then they just keep repeating that cycle year after year. Croatian clubs also have a constant source of transfer revenue coming in, per capita they bring in more transfer revenue from foreign clubs than any other European nation, their club sides have significantly improved their performances in Europe and the quality of the domestic league is improving year on year despite flogging their best players. Exactly the same thing has happened in Belgium and beginning to take place in countries like Serbia, Switzerland, Austria and Iceland. 32% of the players in the Croatian top-flight are foreign, in Scotland at the moment it's 45%, but Croatia have two less clubs in the top-flight so there's roughly the same number of squad places available to non-foreign players in each country.
In Scotland we don't move enough Scottish players on. The most common transfer is a free transfer and in recent seasons the most likely destination for Scottish players leaving the SPFL is English League One. Followed by the English Championship, English League Two, Iceland, Ireland and the USA. Most of these players fail to make the grade playing elsewhere, at the likes of Luton Town or Colchester United, and end up back playing in Scotland within a year or so. We have the same handful of players moving from club to club in Scotland, stagnating away, not really adding any value (monetary or otherwise) to the clubs they play for and not really improving the quality of the league. There is a logjam at the top of Scottish football and this is stopping young players from getting a chance to play first team football here for a couple of years before moving on and it's also stopping the bigger clubs from looking further down the leagues, where there is undoubtedly talented players with potential, and giving these guys an opportunity to step up.
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32 minutes ago, HTG said:
No. There are dozens of excellent community clubs in Scotland who don't have an SFA club licence. I'm saying that they were what they were - with their community development award - in their community. A team founded on its community ethos but playing their licenced football matches a distance away from the very community is not something to congratulate. I'm not saying they don't fit the rules for licencing. I'm saying that making a big deal of their community credentials and then popping up 35 miles away to play their senior football is a complete contradiction. I have no problem with BSC as a football club and no problem really with clubs being transient for a period whilst their ground gets built or renovated. But I think there should be a time limit on them achieving that based on where they want the club registered in the long term.
It's not ideal that they play their home games in Alloa, I don't know why they chose Alloa. My original point though was that there's no real comparison between BSC and Edusport. BSC are a club that have gradually grown over the last 14 years to meet the needs of their members within their own community but just happen to play their home games in Alloa because there isn't a suitable home ground for them in Glasgow at the moment. It does state on their website that as a sports club they hope to own and operate all their own facilities in the future which suggests playing in Alloa is a compromise for the time being. They shouldn't be considered a diddy club if they have 100's of kids participating regularly in sport.
Edusport on the other hand have no hometown, apparently no desire to have their own ground or develop a playing core/fanbase in any particular community - they can up sticks at any point and relocate and it wont make any difference to them or to the people of Annan many of whom are probably completely unaware that they are even playing there.
The wider point I was making is that throughout Scotland there is clearly a willingness to participate in football - Inverkeithing being a great example of this. Unfortunately the facilities and a clear pathway to the top of the sport don't exist. Ideally all clubs in Scotland, regardless of current grade, would gain a license, join the pyramid and work their way towards the SFA Legacy award. It'll take a long time to achieve this but it is possible and it would change the sport and communities for the better.
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1 hour ago, HTG said:
Just to be clear, BSC being a community football club with 750 kids or whatever playing for them makes absolutely zero difference in terms of licencing. Every requirement in the green guide relating to youth football starts with "if the club ...". All of the statutory requirements relate to the set up for the first team.
Is this you, in a round about way, congratulating BSC Glasgow for going over and above what is technically required of them ?
BSC have been given the SFA community development award which is a wholly different set of criteria from that of club licensing as far as i'm aware and voluntary.
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20 minutes ago, Khufu2 said:
?????????
12 minutes ago, drs said:Yoker play in Yoker at the ground of Yoker, you cross the road from Yoker train station and you are at the ground. Clydebank play in Yoker despite being from Clydebank
Yoker is a district of Glasgow. Holm Park is in Whitecrook, Clydebank, West Dunbartonshire.
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59 minutes ago, Glenconner said:
That whole sign up, cough up and shut up gig pisses me right off. But to use the word "community" is laughable. I'd a glance at the BSC website, the catchment area seems to be anything west of Sauchiehall St to the last house in Old Kilpatrick. Maybe better to word it "sports business". The old community bit gets banded about a lot by football clubs large and small even when it's obviously nonsense. Take it sounds good on a grant application.
Btw, i'm probably one of the few non friends and family who has made the trip out to Alloa to see BSC Glasgow playing. Never at any point did i get the sense of any local community spirit. One of the local Alloa FC people there that night said he thought BSC was some sort of further education outfit when he first heard of them.
I'm not a BSC fan, I have no involvement with the club. I'm just not sure what ideal or sensitivity it is that people have that BSC as an organisation is offending. They're a private sports club owned and operated by their members, people pay to become members in order to avail of the services and facilities they provide. If there was no benefit to this then there would be no demand for it and therefore no club. People are entitled to spend money on what they want. There's thousands of sports clubs around the world operated on a similar basis, most German football clubs, the Foundation of Hearts, the Well Society, all of these organisations operate on the same premise resulting in what it is the members have predetermined will be beneficial to them, other members, the club and the wider community.
If 750 or so members want to spend money helping BSC achieve its aims and benefit from membership then I genuinely don't see why that causes offence to anyone else in any way. They're a constitutional organisation, a registered charity and a licensed football club that have achieved a community award from the SFA, they're not profiting from their members or duping anyone out of their money.
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24 minutes ago, Glenconner said:
700 kids - £30 a month = £21,000
Call it £250,000 a year
Plus grants.
Plus sponsorship
And you want the Glasgow taxpayers to build you a stadium?
Sorry troops, keep the community bit for the non graduates living in Whiteinch. You'd be laughed out of Broomhill Tennis Club with that one.
I'm not really sure what you're argument is here? Are you suggesting that a group of middle class parents are indulging in some machiavellian scheme to rip off school children? Broomhill Sports Club was set-up to provide sporting opportunities to children that the council decided weren't worth investing in anymore. £30 a month isn't much if you consider BSC is providing opportunity to 750 kids to participate in sport. That doesn't come cheap, I'd be surprised if they turn any significant profit. They're also a registered charity who submit accounts to the Scottish Charity Regulator. As I said in my earlier post sports clubs should be reflective of the community they represent, the Broomhill area and surrounding areas are decidedly middle class, as is most of Glasgow these days. It would seem to me that BSC have created a club that is reflective of the community needs and demands. Indeed, if there was no demand for these services then they simply wouldn't exist as a club in the first place.
If the issue you have is that people are spending money then do you complain when Andy Murray wins grand slam titles because his parents paid for private tennis tuition in Spain? Or what about the plethora of footballers whose parents spend a fortune on travel and other things putting them through the pro-youth set-up? How about all the successful Commonwealth Games athletes who paid for access to Swimming Pools, Velodromes, Gyms etc.?
2 minutes ago, Enigma said:Still a joke BSC don’t play in, or anywhere near Glasgow. Which ‘community’ are you serving?
Broomhill and the West of Glasgow which is where most of their participants/club members live. Just because their first team squad play in a different town doesn't mean they no longer represent Glasgow, they have existed in Glasgow for 14 years now - I've no idea why they chose to play in Alloa though when there's a few licensed grounds in the greater Glasgow area. Kirkie Rob Roy play in Cumbernauld, Rossvale played in Glasgow for a while, Yoker play in Clydebank despite being from Glasgow. Cove are playing in Inverurie at the moment. It doesn't mean that these clubs cease/ceased to represent the area that they originated from.
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It's worth pointing out that BSC Glasgow are a community football club that have achieved the SFA's community development award. Broomhill Sports Club have over 700 children participating in a variety of sports with many of them playing football at various age levels for BSC. They are embedded within the Glasgow community and do lots of great work. To suggest that they are a diddy football club without a home or that they have taken an easy route to licensing/senior football is a fallacy. Unfortunately there just isn't a suitable home ground for them in the Glasgow area at the moment. They are not really comparable to Edusport in any way - a wholly opportunistic bunch. Also, BSC, East Kilbride, Cumbernauld Colts etc. aren't "glorified boys clubs" who jumped ahead of the queue - there was no queue at the time they applied.
Many of the senior or soon to be senior non-league clubs in Scotland have a far greater impact on their local communities than many on here would give them credit for. There are many senior, amateur and youth clubs that have a far more positive impact on their respective communities than many junior clubs do. Inverkeithing Hillfield Swifts are a great example of this, they have 450 people participating in football from under age football through to over 35's and walking football. 450 is just shy of 10% of Inverkeithing's population. When you add in their 100 voluntary coaches it's actually over 10% of the population participating regularly in football. IHS are one of 49 clubs (only 49!) in Scotland to have achieved the highest community award from the SFA. There's not many junior clubs on that list. Hutchie Vale BC (the youth section of LTHV) have produced 100's of players that have gone on to play professionally, many of them at international level - Darren Fletcher, Leigh Griffiths, Kevin Thomson, Jason Cummings, Derek Riordan, Steven Whittaker, Allan McGregor, Danny Wilson, Gary Naysmith, Gary Caldwell, John Collins, Gary Locke, John Hughes and even Icelandic international Alfred Finnbogason - to name just a few. How many junior players have made the jump up to international football in recent years?
The only argument against junior clubs joining the senior structure seems to be the wholly jargonistic "junior identity" terminology, suggesting that their is some inherent quality prevalent in junior football that doesn't exist outwith the junior structure. At no point though has anyone put forward any quantifiable method in which we can measure this self-proclaimed inherent quality. Instead we see petty squabbles about attendances and nostalgic anecdotes about how junior clubs have existed longer than other non-junior clubs and are therefore more deserving in some way. If simply existing longer and getting a few more people through the turnstiles is considered a genuine measure of success then, in my opinion, that would suggest that something, somewhere along the lines has gone horribly wrong in junior football. No doubt this complacency has been encouraged by the incompetent people running the SJFA, the SJFA do not seem to have the best interests of junior clubs or the communities they serve at heart - a point which is consistently made by junior fans themselves.
All a country needs to be successful in a particular sport is - a willingness to participate, encouraging (preferably qualified) coaches, decent facilities, a clear pathway to the top and clubs which reflect the local culture. It's hardly rocket science. The SFA licensing scheme, the SFA Community Award Scheme and a fully integrated pyramid structure would seem to be the things that would give individual clubs and Scottish football what it/they need to be successful heading into the future. Unfortunately, what is essentially an argument over terminology, fuelled by the vested interests of certain self-preserving individuals and certain clubs, has halted progress for well over a decade of "pyramid discussion" now. This, for me, is an abdication of responsibility toward the communities that these institutions are supposed to be serving. Maybe that's just indicative of wider Scottish society.
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I was reading through the various comments on this thread today and took note of some of the concerns/issues that people have about their clubs joining the non-league structure and the flaws in the structure as it currently stands. The main issues seem to be the potential cost of travel, the disparity between probable regions from tier 6 and below (SoSL at tier 6 etc.), the loss of traditional rivalries and some clubs getting cut adrift without a relevant senior league to play in.
When it comes to population within regions and the disparity of the number of clubs that operate within these regions there is, unfortunately, nothing which can be done about that. Scotland's population distribution would make it impossible to create regions that have roughly the same number of people and clubs in each region.
However, it is possible to create four regions from tier 6 downwards that cover roughly the same geographic area and retain most of the traditional rivalries that exist in the current senior and junior set-ups respectively. Assuming there is going to be no revision of the Highland/Lowland boundary, which is currently set at the mouth of the Tay, a North West, North East, East and West structure could be implemented with the NW and NE clubs feeding into the Highland League and the other two into the LL.
Each region would cover these council areas:
North West Senior League: Highland, Argyll & Bute (North), Na h-Eileanan Siar , Shetland, Orkney.
North East Senior League: Aberdeenshire, Aberdeen City, Perth & Kinross (North Tay), Dundee City, Angus, Moray.
East of Scotland Senior League: City of Edinburgh, Fife, West Lothian, Falkirk, Perth & Kinross (South Tay), Scottish Borders, East Lothian, Stirling, Midlothian, Clackmannanshire, Borough of Berwick-Upon-Tweed (England).
West of Scotland Senior League: Glasgow City, North Lanarkshire, South Lanarkshire, Renfrewshire, Dumfries & Galloway, North Ayrshire, East Ayrshire, South Ayrshire, East Dunbartonshire, East Renfrewshire, West Dunbartonshire, Argyll & Bute (South), Inverclyde.Area of these regions:
NW: 31,186 km2 (Excluding vast underpopulated areas and areas that have no senior or junior clubs: approx. 15,000km2-17,000km2)
NE: 12,979 km2
EOS: 13,710 km2
WOS: 20,050 km2 (Excluding Argyll & Bute which currently has no senior or Junior Clubs: 13,141 km2)These regions are about as even as you could possibly make them in terms of size when Scotland's complex geography is taken into consideration. In the West and North West there is always the possibility that an outlier club may want to join in the future, say a club in Dunoon wanting to join the West for example. In that scenario it would only be one difficult/costly away trip a season for the other member clubs in that region.
Likely Greatest Distance Between Member Clubs (taking into consideration all current Senior & Junior Clubs):
NW: Fort William to Kirkwall = 220 Miles (Fort William to Thurso 170 Miles)
NE: Dundee to Burghead = 140 Miles
EOS: Tweedmouth to Tayport = 120 Miles
WOS: Wigtown to Greenock = 110 MilesIn the West even if the SoSL and Juniors were merged into the one regional set-up those clubs would be playing in the second smallest area and possibly have the least amount of travelling to do.
Total Number of Clubs by Region* (SPFL, HFL, LFL, NCL, EoSL, SoSL, SJFA & Glasgow University included):
NW: 20 Clubs: (2 SPFL Clubs + 6 HFL Clubs + 9 NCL Clubs + 3 North Region Junior Clubs)
NE: 68 Clubs: (9 SPFL Clubs + 12 HFL Clubs + 31 North Region Juniors + 16 East Region Juniors)
EOS: 82 Clubs: (14 SPFL Clubs + 11 LFL Clubs + 12 EoSL Clubs + 1 West Region Junior Club + 44 East Region Junior Clubs)
WOS: 100 Clubs: (17 SPFL Clubs + 5 LFL Clubs + 14 SoSL Clubs + 63 West Region Junior Clubs + Glasgow University)Total Number of Clubs by Region* when Junior Clubs that Responded 'No' to Pyramid Survey are Excluded (SPFL, HFL, LFL, NCL, EoSL, SoSL, SJFA & Glasgow University included):
NW: 19 Clubs: (2 SPFL Clubs + 6 HFL Clubs + 9 NCL Clubs + 2 North Region Junior Clubs)
NE: 53 Clubs: (9 SPFL Clubs + 12 HFL Clubs + 21 North Region Juniors + 11 East Region Juniors)
EOS: 72 Clubs: (14 SPFL Clubs + 11 LFL Clubs + 12 EoSL Clubs + 1 West Region Junior Club + 34 East Region Junior Clubs)
WOS: 71 Clubs: (17 SPFL Clubs + 5 LFL Clubs + 14 SoSL Clubs + 34 West Region Junior Clubs + Glasgow University)*Excluding reserve teams - Stirling University, Stranraer & Annan Athletic.
Number of Clubs to be Integrated from tier 6 and Below*:
NW: 11 (9 NCL Clubs + 2 North Region Junior Clubs) - one division of 11 Clubs
NE: 32 (21 North Region Juniors + 11 East Region Juniors) - two divisions of 16 Clubs
EOS:47 (12 EoSL Clubs + 1 West Region Junior Club + 34 East Region Junior Clubs) - two divisions of 16 + one of 15
WOS:49 (14 SoSL Clubs + 34 West Region Junior Clubs + Glasgow University) - two divisions of 16 + one of 17*assuming no junior clubs have a change of heart and all senior clubs would be willing to participate in new regional structure
The only big disparity in terms of number of clubs appears between the NE and NW but you couldn't expect clubs from Dundee and Perthshire to travel to Thurso and Orkney at tier 6, the only reasonable solution is to have those two separate regions feeding into the HL - from tier 5 upwards clubs should be expected to/be capable of travelling further distances anyway as preparation for potentially moving up into the SPFL.
Obviously there are double the number of clubs in the Lowland area than there are in the Highland area. In time that anomaly could be dealt with simply by increasing the number of promotion places to the SPFL to 2 and having a play-off in which the LL champions play the HL runners-up and HL champions play the LL runners-up with both winners being promoted to the SPFL. That way if the LL becomes far stronger than the HL due to the area having more clubs then the difference can be settled on the pitch.
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35 minutes ago, Isabel Goudie said:
A bit closer to home, Gretna, a club caught up in hype projecting them way beyond their natural level, bankrolled by a rich businessman and did go out of business.
A bit closer to home, Ballingry Rovers etc.
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8 minutes ago, Isabel Goudie said:
All the wealth in the pyramid? What will happen with that once the floodgates open a dozens of Junior clubs want a share?
Even if all the Junior clubs, North Caledonian League Clubs and Glasgow University joined the pyramid and became full members (if they aren't already), and all current unlicensed clubs currently within the structure also became licensed, then the money available to them in the seniors would still remain higher than that available in the juniors.
There were 91 clubs in the Scottish cup this season. If all juniors and NCL teams joined the structure that would equal 270 clubs. If you divide the prize money available in the Scottish Cup by 3 then the money on offer is still higher than what 99% of clubs earn in the Junior Cup.
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On 25/07/2017 at 18:20, Tulloch Gorum said:
Did Dado Prso not play at some relatively diddy level until quite far into his career as well? And no, I don't mean Rangers (RIP).
Prso was a car mechanic in France until he was 22. Signed by Monaco in 1996 but didn't make his debut for them until 1999, at the age of 25. Made his debut for Croatia at 29, signed for Rangers when he was 30.
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1 hour ago, Burnie_man said:
The reality is that as the governing body of football in this country, they have a responsibility to ensure that there is a workable and fair structure in place for ALL clubs should they wish to join the Pyramid and get licenced.
They are so far failing to do that.
I agree with you entirely. Equality has to be the key principle when forming a pyramid structure. To have the current Lowland region at tier 5 is quite sensible as the clubs currently participating in it are proving that they are willing, but most importantly, capable of covering a wider geographical area before potentially stepping up to the national SPFL. The worst thing that could happen is a club stepping up to the SPFL from a smaller regional/local league and realising they are not able to compete and having to pull out of League Two mid-season - that would be disastrous for the idea that a pyramid is beneficial to Scottish football.
What the SFA needs to do is work on tier 6 of the pyramid as it is grossly unequal at the moment. The area that the EoSL covers is roughly 120 miles north to south (north Fife to Tweedmouth) and around 90 miles east to west (Eyemouth to Stirlingshire). The equivalent league at tier 6 only covers Dumfries & Galloway except for 1 new club. Immediately clubs in the SoSL are being handed a competitive advantage as their costs of participating are far less. As examples, Kirkcudbright to Helensburgh is 120 miles, Girvan to Shotts is only 80 miles. If a club in North Fife decided to join the set-up then EoSL clubs would be expected to just accept it and get on with it. If equality is the aim then why should it not be the same for the SoSL?
There's only really two options at tier 6. The SFA can allow the SoSL to gradually evolve to include clubs in an expanded geographical area or they can intervene and set up an entirely new league that covers that wider geographical area. What I was saying in my last post is that the SFA's hand is not being forced as clubs in the west have been willing to join and more will likely follow. That means that the ball is in the Junior clubs court not the SFA's. Will some of the west junior clubs join and attempt to reform the system from the inside?
The best option in the long term may be to add a second tier to the Lowland League (at tier 6) and have this tier split into East and West and allow clubs to join these leagues from the SoSL, EoSL, juniors, amateur, welfare, youth leagues etc. Whether they set up new leagues or expand the current ones the geographical areas need to be similar in size in order for it to be fair and equal.
The South-East region should cover these council areas - City of Edinburgh, Fife, West Lothian, Falkirk, Perth & Kinross (the bit south of the Tay), Scottish Borders, East Lothian, Stirling, Midlothian, Clackmannanshire. Total Population = 1,802,490
The South-West Region should cover these council areas - Glasgow City, North Lanarkshire, South Lanarkshire, Renfrewshire, Dumfries & Galloway, North Ayrshire, East Ayrshire, South Ayrshire, East Dunbartonshire, East Renfrewshire, West Dunbartonshire, Argyll & Bute (the bit south of the Tay), Inverclyde. Total Population = 2,411,530
The only disparity between these regions is population size, but every council area (except for East Renfrewshire) in the South-West region that I have proposed is experiencing a long-term decline in population (Glasgow 712,000 residents in 1981, 606,000 residents by 2015. Inverclyde a 22% reduction in population in the same period etc.) All of the areas in the East region are experiencing population booms, based on current trends Edinburgh will be bigger than Glasgow in the next 10-20 years, Dunfermline and Livingston will likely be bigger than Paisley and East Kilbride in the same time period, Musselburgh is now bigger than Dumbarton etc. As most of the increases in the east are due to people relocating there from the west then the population sizes will roughly be the same in a decade.
The SFA have clarified the licensing criteria. If they were to clarify these regions and allow clubs that wish to participate the opportunity to do so then we have a Lowland region that is truly egalitarian. The regions are roughly equal in size and in a few years will be in terms of population. All clubs will have clarity in advance of making a decision as to whether or not to join and they know what is expected of them should they join. Everybody is included if they want to be and nobody is excluded against their will. Amateur clubs in Argyll & Bute or the Borders are being treated the same as senior clubs in D&G or Junior clubs in Ayrshire/the central belt/Fife etc. Every club is equal and the only distinction between clubs is that they are either licensed and can participate or unlicensed and can't fully participate until they get a license.
That said, no club should be forced to live beyond their means by a Governing Body. The SFA should not force clubs to be promoted nor should they force licensed clubs to participate in leagues that are no longer suitable to their needs. If the SoSL does gradually evolve to cover a wider geographic area then clubs that have been competing in the SoSL since it was tacked onto the structure at tier 6 should be allowed to leave that league without any repercussions. If a new South-West league is formed at some point then Licensed SoSL clubs shouldn't be forced to participate in that league either - the SoSL can simply be placed further down the pyramid or become the Lowland version of the North Caledonian league - senior in name only, not part of the structure but still an important local league to have in the area.
It's fair, it's equal and all individual clubs have clarity, freedom of choice and control over what happens to them.
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5 hours ago, Burnie_man said:
It would have been nice for Kelty to have remained in the Juniors and along with other like minded clubs, worked with the SJFA and SFA towards bringing the Juniors into the Pyramid in a structured manner. Whether other clubs follow remains to be seen but it doesn't change the fact the structure is flawed and the West clubs in reality have nowhere to go if they wanted to follow Kelty (SoS is not a viable option).
2 hours ago, Robert James said:The solution is simple. The ambitious West clubs propose a West of Scotland (Senior) League to the SFA, which feeds direct into the Lowland League, with the champion club being promoted each season. The SoSL clubs who want to progress within the pyramid, would be offered places in the new WoSL, alongside the West Junior sides. Otherwise the SoSL becomes a feeder league to the WSL
A similar set up (champion club promoted to the Lowland) could exist in the East, with the top 4 or 5 ambitious 'seniors' being joined by (say) 10 junior sides initially. The remaining EoSL clubs would become a feeder as above..
As a carrot, the SFA could grant the junior clubs who join the new WoSL or the integrated EoSL/ER Superleague, immediate entry to the SFA Cup for a maximum period of 2 years to enable them to obtain a licence. The SJFA Cup would be opened up to Lowland and Highland clubs to participate if they wished to do so. .
Promotion to the WoSL & EoSL would not be compulsory, as these leagues would have some clubs in membership, who don't wish to (or can't) get licensed.
"Pyramid Integration by Evolution"
The SFA is under no obligation to accommodate clubs based in South-West Scotland. The EoSL is for clubs based south of the Tay and in the East of Scotland. As the SoSL is an equivalent league on the same tier of the structure as the EoSL then logically it is a league for all clubs based south of the Tay and in the West of Scotland. There is no need for mergers between leagues or for the SFA to start sticking various different leagues in at tier 6/tier 7 just to keep some clubs happy. The SFA's only obligations are to set the licensing criteria and make sure that the system is an egalitarian one which is open to all clubs that wish to become licensed and participate. East Kilbride, Cumbernauld Colts, BSC Glasgow, Edusport Academy (who were based in Hamilton at the time of application) and now Bonnyton Thistle have all applied and chosen to participate in the pyramid structure, all of these clubs are/were based in traditional West Region junior territory, none of these clubs seem to regret having joined. Having seen the progress and relative success of these clubs how many other well run community clubs in the region are weighing up the possibility of getting a license and joining the current structure? The reality is that the SFA has to do nothing at all in regards to enticing the junior clubs to join. Nor do they have to do anything to please clubs in the SoSL. Clubs have joined and more clubs will choose to do so in the future.
The main issue is not the current structure and the geographical areas that each league theoretically incorporates but rather the issue is the current geographical imbalances within certain leagues. The SoSL is full of teams from Dumfries & Galloway (except one new club) and the Lowland League is very East-centric. The only way to redress these issues is for clubs to participate fully. If Wigtown, St. Cuthberts, Threave etc. compete for and accept promotion to the Lowland League then the LL becomes a lot less East heavy. If the West Region junior clubs have an issue with the SoSL being dominated by clubs from D&G then the best way to deal with that is for them to get licenses and join the league, by doing so they help the SoSL become a league which covers a far larger geographical area - an area similar to the size covered by the EoSL. If the junior clubs decide against joining then that is their loss, there are other clubs that will choose to join anyway.
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1 hour ago, C4mmy31 said:
Gotta love how people assume a newly promoted side will be shoeins to be challenging for a European placeThe last two seasons newly promoted teams qualified for Europe, I fancy Hibs to finish second or third next season.
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2 hours ago, capt_oats said:
MacLean signed a new deal until 2019 a while back. http://www.motherwellfc.co.uk/2016/12/07/ross-maclean-signs-extension/
Samson, Chalmers, Lucas will be catapulted straight into the sun.
I'd have thought Pearson would be looking at India again given he won the league over there last season and he's got ages until their season starts to allow him to get over his injury. In fact he'd probably be able to do a pre-season with us.
Lasley I could see being offered some sort of player/coach gig and he and Craigan do a great job with the u20s but if he still wants to play regularly you'd think he'd need to drop a level as McHugh's essentially his replacement and Campbell's in a similar mould.
Moore and Ferguson would probably benefit from dropping a level and getting regular games tbh.
McFadden? Who knows? I still get the feeling he was never really convinced by the assistant role but it was mutually beneficial in so much as the club got to keep him around and he got to give coaching a shot. If you listen back to his interviews when he got the job he was still talking about wanting to contribute on the playing side. He never really sounded like someone for whom coaching was on his agenda at this point.
There's possibly an argument that Robinson may benefit from having a more experienced assistant alongside him anyway tbh.
Edit: Some quite revealing comments from Robinson in the press the other day;
I reckon "I've inherited 14 players with 4 over 35 on 2 year contracts." is a misquote; he's inherited 4 over 34 (Hammell, McManus, Lasley & Pearson) but only 2 are on 2 year deals. Either way though...bold.
I wouldn't be overly disappointed if none of those players signed on for us again. Obviously Griffiths, Pain & Jules' loan deals will be up as well and Tom Fry is being released from the development squad. We had 27 players in the first team squad this season. If all the players whose contracts are running out combined with the loan players and Fry leaving then that leaves us 14 first team players and the development squad. I'm not sure how many players from the development squad will be staying on but if you combine both squads together then that is 27 players. I wouldn't be disappointed if Hammell and Clay left either and i'd be happy to see the back of Blyth.
Being realistic about it, it looks like Dundee United are probably going to be coming up with Hibs and that probably pushes us further down the league standings. We'll likely be tussling with Ross County, Dundee and Killie down the bottom end of the table again. Our transfer policy of trying to uncover hidden gems from the lower leagues in England hasn't really worked, for every Moult and Johnson there has been many players that haven't added anything to the team. Our loan signings have been mediocre at best and as Robinson said there the club can't keep re-signing players just because they used to play for the club. We can try and sign a raft of players but I don't see how we're going to be able to get a load of players better than that which we already have. Robinson has already got many of the young players involved in the squad and there comes a time when you just have to throw them into the team and see how they get on, usually we all end up pleasantly surprised when that happens and many of them generate large transfer fees as well as developing the team. Here's the squad we would have if we combined the remaining first team players with the development squad...
Goalkeepers
Peter Morrison (u20), Jamie Stevenson (u17)
Defenders
Stephen McManus, Ben Heneghan, Carl McHugh, Adam Livingstone (u20), Barry Maguire (u20), Stevie Hammell, Jack McMillan (u20), Luke Watt (u20)
Midfielders
Allan Campbell (u20), Craig Clay, Shea Gordon (u20), David Turnbull (u20), Elliott Frear, Jordon Armstrong (u20), Jake Hastie (u20), Chris Cadden (u20), Ross MacLean (u20), Dom Thomas, Josh Moore (u20)
Forwards
Louis Moult, Ryan Bowman, Jacob Blyth, Dylan Falconer (u20), James Scott (u20), Dylan Mackin (u20)
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25 minutes ago, capt_oats said:
Letting us down gently there about Lionel. It looks like the squad is getting properly emptied right enough.
So that'll be Ainsworth and McDonald away then. That leaves 9 players who's playing contracts are up at the end of the season...
Samson, Chalmers, Ferguson, Lasley, Pearson, Lucas, MacLean, Moore & McFadden. I'm not sure how many of these players will stay?
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On 2017-3-26 at 17:03, Ya Bezzer! said:
I know that's not what you are saying, you have complied a list of players playing England who are eligible for Scotland but there is a sort of connected inference that if a Scottish player is playing at a certain level in English football he's potentially a Scottish international. Yet many of the players mentioned in this thread are no better than current U20s players in the Scottish development league and nowhere near being Scottish internationals.
If there was a 'Who Can We Have From the SPFL' list Motherwell U20s players like Ross MacLean, Alan Campbell and Jake Hastie wouldn't be considered, even though they are at a similar level as players to Robbie Leitch and are perhaps even further developed since they have first team games under their belt.
I'm not having a go at you. I'm simply saying the list is a good example of how anything to do with English football gets a reputation boast by virtue of association.
Perhaps you could revise your list with players who had played 25 league matches this season? Or even players with first team experience?
On 2017-3-26 at 16:51, King Kebab said:I'm really not mentioning him or anybody else as a potential Scotland player, as Dee Man says it is a list of all eligible players playing in the top two tiers of English Football, that is all it is!!!
I could do one for Germany and Portugal too but it would be a very short list, the idea of it is just to give you an idea of players to look out for that you may not know about or may not even heard of in two of the most high profile Leagues in the world, that's all it is!!!
The difference here is that the top two tiers of English football are of a far superior quality to that of the Scottish Premiership. The EPL is the 3rd best league in Europe, the Scottish Premiership is the 23rd best league in Europe. If it hadn't been for Celtic's performances in Europe this year we would have likely been 28th or 29th behind Norway, Azerbaijan, Bulgaria, Serbia & Kazakhstan's top divisions. Other countries of a similar size to Scotland call up squads almost entirely based upon who is playing at the highest level - Croatia's squad for the Euro's was primarily made up of players playing for big clubs in big leagues and most of these clubs regularly play in the Champions League or Europa League - only their outstanding domestic based players make it into the squad such as Pjaca or Rog, both of whom have since moved on to Juventus and Napoli. Ante Coric will be the next Croatian based player to get a move to a big European club. Croatian club's are pragmatic, they know they are producing talented players so that they can eventually sell them onto a higher level. The Croatian national team is used to highlight their best young domestic based talent usually 2 or 3 players tops in every squad for competitive fixtures. This is a good thing as Croatian players have clarity when it comes to their route to the top of football and this kind of competition pushes them on.
It becomes increasingly more difficult to justify calling up Scottish based players when we have eligible players training and playing at a much higher level. If you add these four players who are playing at a higher level than Scottish football onto the list of English based players playing in the EPL or English Championship, then we've enough available players playing at a higher level than Scottish football to call up at least two decent squads...
Germany (2nd Best League in Europe) - Oliver Burke (RB Leipzig)
Portugal (7th) - Ryan Gauld (Sporting Lisbon)
Turkey (10th) - Barry Douglas (Konyaspor)
Poland (20th) - Ziggy Gordon (Jagiellonia Bialystok)
...for me, the only Scottish based players that have stood out enough this season to warrant a definite call-up are Tierney and Armstrong. Other players that I would maybe call-up depending on form are McGregor, Forrest (Celtic), Liam Lindsay (Partick), Jamie Walker, Callum Paterson (Hearts).
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6 minutes ago, clyde_darren said:
Well we do already have 5 signed up for next year already
"At the end of last week, the club confirmed the addition of five new signings; Matt Flynn, Martin McNiff, Phil Johnston, Jordan Lowdon and Ewan McNeil.
All of those players have signed two-year contracts with The Bully Wee"Matt Flynn is an old pal of David Goodwillie .... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-17929730
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On 21/04/2017 at 16:24, Moses McNeil said:
Heard from a 100% reliable source that Kelty Hearts have decided to join the pyramid and see how far they can go. Obviously they will be starting at the bottom and are expected to be playing in the East of Scotland League from next season while they go through the licencing process.
On 23/04/2017 at 20:19, Wile E Coyote said:At the moment Kelty and Bo'ness have the squads to walk the EOS but for the most part players are mercenaries with no club ties so whose to say the current players would stay with them to drop down a level to play. They could easily move to another Junior club for the same wages and play at a higher level..
Of course they will probably have a financial advantage over other clubs in the EOS so may be able to recruit other players that will still give them a competitive advantage
It would be great to see some junior clubs make the step up. I wouldn't be so sure about them walking the league though. Leith, LTHV and Tynecastle are well run senior clubs with ambitions of their own, the other EOS clubs seem to be a bit behind the juniors mind you. Kelty, Bo'ness, Linlithgow, Preston, LTHV, Tynecastle, Heriot Watt and Leith all in the same league would make a great wee competition. Not sure if it will all happen for the upcoming season though, but I hope it does. Hopefully Bonnyrigg will make the jump sooner rather than later as well.
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Derangement Syndrome
in The Politics Forum
Posted
I think that on the left and the right content, intent or context doesn't really matter anymore. Defeating the other side is all that really matters. If Trump suddenly announced new legislation to deal with climate change and billions of dollars to support it, it wouldn't be long before the Democrats found some reason to denounce environmentalism. They would probably frame it as Trump attacking the poor or minorities or something along those lines - "he was supposed to be bringing industrial jobs back to the rust belt" - kind of arguments would likely be made. Most Republicans were in favour of Government intervention in healthcare until Obama made it his priority, most Democrats were in favour of stricter immigration controls until Trump pledged to do something about it at the primaries, now they want next to no immigration control whatsoever.
Personally I don't believe that any of our political parties in the UK have anything resembling a coherent, implementable plan for the future. Nor do I think that many of them can even be bothered to pretend that they do. Ridiculous soundbites about issues (or non-issues) that most folk don't really care about but appeal to a certain base, or token gestures - such as minimum pricing of alcohol - so as to be seen to be caring about a problem without actually caring about the problem - is the MO for seemingly all politicians now.
I think, as has already been mentioned, that social media plays a role in amplifying the views of people on the lunatic fringes of the left and right. People like Jesse Peterson, Alex Jones and AOC make David Icke's views seem reasonable. I think this amplification makes many people feel like there is a culture war but ultimately I don't personally think there really is one. It's just a lot of people using the left-right dichotomy to monetise their blogs/Youtube channels, gain cheap validation through retweets etc.
I kind of feel sorry for our politicians to some extent though. There seems to be a correlation between material wealth and alienation within a lot of developed countries. The more the country develops material prosperity the more people appear to feel alienated. All our political parties are materialistic they just disagree with how the material wealth should be distributed and this line of thinking just seems to further exacerbate the problem.
In Scotland if you combine those that are clinically overweight, those who regularly drink alcohol above the recommended amount, those who abuse drugs (Illegal and Legal) and those who use tobacco products then almost everyone that lives in Scotland is an addict of some sort. Drug deaths and homeless junkies are just the extreme end of a self-harm problem that affects almost everyone in Scotland. What is it that is causing people to knowingly inflict such harm on themselves, ultimately to the point of premature death for most? What is it that people are trying to escape from? If almost everyone is an addict then relative poverty/austerity can't be the main issue as claimed by so many, of course poverty can play a role but I don't believe it's the main problem. There's clearly a much deeper issue of social alienation underlying such behaviour.
How do you deal with such a deep problem like that if you're a politician, political activist etc.? The answer is that they don't, they simply aim to distract people from reality by creating the notion that people are on opposing sides despite most people (if not all) suffering from very similar problems - we're all far more alike than we are different. The pretence that everything will get better if only we could defeat our political opponents is the real derangement syndrome I guess.