HibeeJibee Posted August 7, 2009 Share Posted August 7, 2009 (edited) No one has came out of this well. I feel like I have been through a wringer over the last week. All I want to do is support my team irrespective of what division. Now I feel that todays action could end that. There also really seems to be a hatred (not by all) for all things Livi. Are we that bad? Most other fans regard today's actions as disgraceful/despicable. I have sympathy for Livi fans - but you'll find a lot of anger directed toward Livingston (meaning Livingston FC) understandably. The position of a lot of your fans (I've had a look at LiviLions a couple of times) isn't helping. No clubs are out to get Livi, the SFL is not out to get Livi... They want the issue to be resolved or go away. Unfortunately, scratching a game for only the 4th time in history doesn't help achieve this!! Edited August 7, 2009 by HibeeJibee 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LLD Posted August 7, 2009 Share Posted August 7, 2009 And why is that, then? Because by allowing it to happen the SFL will be breaking their own rules. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted August 7, 2009 Share Posted August 7, 2009 (edited) McGruther seems to be the most incompetent and bumbling administrator I have ever witnessed. He's luched from one position to the next in the last two weeks, now he's in effect inviting a hefty deduction of points and jeapordising the alleged two bids he has on the table. Edited August 7, 2009 by vikingTON 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HibeeJibee Posted August 7, 2009 Share Posted August 7, 2009 And I suspect any case will be strengthened when Ross County and Airdrie kick off at Victoria Park tomorrow. Even if we accept this line, how are Livi FC going to fund an action in the Court of Session? And how are they going to win it? And does the whole league stop to wait? What about FIFA action? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Old Northerner Posted August 7, 2009 Share Posted August 7, 2009 MCgruther seems to be the most incompetent and bumbling administrator I have ever witnessed. He's luched from one position to the next in the last two weeks, now he's in effect inviting a hefty deduction of points and jeapordising the alleged two bids he has on the table. He did OK for Falkirk. Perhaps he's part of the anti-Livvy conspiracy 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southview Posted August 7, 2009 Share Posted August 7, 2009 (edited) I think we also need a re-write of the rules: both on admin punishment, and on-the-spot action. Agreed. I think a 10-point penalty for entering into an "insolvency act" should be applied across the SFL, regardless of the circumstances. Everyone knows where they stand then. This "treating each case on its merits" simply doesn't work. Does anyone think SFL have already set their precedent though with regards Gretna and now Livingston? Namely, administration has been punished by relegation to the third division...? Re Longmuir: I think he done a decent job as well but his comments last week were ridiculous. EDIT: To put in a couple of missing words! Edited August 7, 2009 by southview 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Snuffleupagus Posted August 7, 2009 Share Posted August 7, 2009 I see the moderators on Livi Lions are losing the plot and banning fans of other clubs. Even the very reasonable Millfield Marksman has been booted off now. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LLD Posted August 7, 2009 Share Posted August 7, 2009 Even if we accept this line, how are Livi FC going to fund an action in the Court of Session? And how are they going to win it? And does the whole league stop to wait? What about FIFA action? I don't see it going to court. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MB Posted August 7, 2009 Share Posted August 7, 2009 There also really seems to be a hatred (not by all) for all things Livi. Are we that bad? Your club is that bad I'm afraid. Given the actions taken today, I'm afraid your club will elicit very little sympathy from many Scottish football fans. I am sure many Livi fans are honest and sincere football supporters; these events must be killing them. However, Livingston FC is an embarrassment. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Master Posted August 7, 2009 Share Posted August 7, 2009 Because by allowing it to happen the SFL will be breaking their own rules. Quote the rule... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Wutherspoon Posted August 7, 2009 Share Posted August 7, 2009 MCgruther seems to be the most incompetent and bumbling administrator I have ever witnessed. He's luched from one position to the next in the last two weeks, now he's in effect inviting a hefty deduction of points and jeapordising the alleged two bids he has on the table. Agreed. This could well render the appeal process redundant & get them kicked out. He'd have played a real blinder in that scenario. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HibeeJibee Posted August 7, 2009 Share Posted August 7, 2009 (edited) I don't see it going to court. Then the SFL should have the balls to see it through. Livingston can only be appealling over the severity of punishment - and, having now thrown as many spanners as they can lay their hands on into the collective SFL works, they will have little support IMO from other SFL clubs. They're stuffed. You don't seriously expect the 28 voting SFL clubs to assemble sometime in the next 10 days, and get such a collective bout of scares that they back down and re-instate Livi to Div 1? I seriously don't see how this helps the administrator. If it's not going to court how does waiting for an appeal to be thrown out help? How does getting a huge points fine / expulsion him either? If Wednesday or today were dramatic - imagine if SFL re-instates them to Div 1 in 10 days time? Edited August 7, 2009 by HibeeJibee 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seb530 Posted August 7, 2009 Share Posted August 7, 2009 Agreed. This could well render the appeal process redundant & get them kicked out. He'd have played a real blinder in that scenario. His role is to get the best deal possible for the creditors and club and that means pursuing any route which would result in more money into the club and out to the creditors. THis action is entirely what we would expect him to do by not prejudicing the outcome by being seen to accept 3rd division football whilst an appeal is ongoing. SIMPLES 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southview Posted August 7, 2009 Share Posted August 7, 2009 (edited) No one has came out of this well. I feel like I have been through a wringer over the last week. All I want to do is support my team irrespective of what division. Now I feel that todays action could end that. There also really seems to be a hatred (not by all) for all things Livi. Are we that bad? I don't want to see any team go out of business as you guys support your club with the passion I do mine. I felt your club were oh so lucky to be given a chance to oust Massone and continue in the SFL even when the League revoking your membership seemed the only option to take. And when the League met on Thursday, I felt a heavy points deduction - which meant relegation was almost certain - was the best course of action to take as opposed to what we have now. Like other people here, some of the posts on LiviLions have to be seen to be believed which doesn't help your overall image but from what I've read on this loooooooooooooooooong thread, the vast majority of Livi fans who have fronted up in here have been well respected with a certain amount of sympathy felt. Edited August 7, 2009 by southview 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rockyrooster Posted August 7, 2009 Share Posted August 7, 2009 MCgruther seems to be the most incompetent and bumbling administrator I have ever witnessed. He's luched from one position to the next in the last two weeks, now he's in effect inviting a hefty deduction of points and jeapordising the alleged two bids he has on the table. What Livvi fans have got to remember that McGruther is doing what is best for the creditors,he couldnt give a rats arse if they survive or not! And wot about your saviours McDougal and Rankine? You got to question what there all about?Is it the best intrests of the club? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Old Northerner Posted August 7, 2009 Share Posted August 7, 2009 His role is to get the best deal possible for the creditors and club and that means pursuing any route which would result in more money into the club and out to the creditors. The route he is taking is a gamble for greater rewards. Arguably, the best deal would be one that is safer but secure. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skyline Drifter Posted August 7, 2009 Share Posted August 7, 2009 (edited) If the SFL use the precedent of Hamilton, Livingston will be goven a 15 point deduction, and be sat bottom of the third division ! ***Long Rant Alert*** Firstly, I think it's important to remember exactly what the SFL did when they handed Hamilton a 15 point penalty and why they did it. Most people only look at the number and don't think about it any further. I don't actually think the 15 point number is a precedent for anything much at all. When the SFL docked Accies 15 points they were quite specific that the reason they did so (and arrived at that number), remembering that the decision was handed down 3 weeks from the end of the season, was because that was the number of points required to place Hamilton bottom of the division but leave their fate still recoverable. They deliberately placed them four points behind us with three games to go and a head to head amongst that. Had we been half a dozen points better off I've no doubt the penalty would have been nine points instead. It was given because of where it left them, not how many points it was and was purely designed to give them a fighting chance of avoiding automatic relegation because they didn't want to just rule that way directly. This is different. If Livingston fail to fulfil this fixture tomorrow (which clearly they will) and their appeal later fails then, given this is start of the season, there's no real reason 15 points should be a precedent. 3 or 6 is more likely. Other points: I think Livingston have conducted themselves deplorably all day today and frankly any sympathy at all for them has now evaporated. They have had two days to decide what to do. I think they should be playing this fixture but leaving that aside for the moment that they clearly aren't going to do so but waited until after 5pm on Friday night to publish it is disgraceful. That they released a statement at 5pm announcing an appeal and mentioning nothing about failing to appear for tomorrow's fixture is doubly disgraceful. Instead we had rumours and half truths flying around for an additional hour or so before it was confirmed that the game will not go ahead. That is utterly utterly reprehensible behaviour and frankly I question the professionalism of the people involved. It's been designed to cause maximum disruption and Livingston are behaving like a spoiled child. Pram overturned, toys everywhere. That they can apparently guarantee they'd be able to play at Dingwall tomorrow but won't play at East Stirling is ridiculous so there can be no argument that it is anything other than a point of principle (to be fair that's exactly what Livingston say it is but we had all sorts of nonsense about players unpaid and insurance floating about because Livi let it run so long). Well I'm sorry but the SFL procedure was, so far as I can see, perfectly in accordance with the rules and if this appeal fails, as it surely will, then Livingston should without question be hit with further points penalties (to whatever extent) for this petulant refusal. It's fairly clear from the tone of the SFL press release that whoever wrote it feels the same. The brinksmanship and gun to the head attitude of Livingston's "White Knights" this week has been disgraceful. Perhaps "Horsemen of the Apocalypse" would now be more appropriate? As for the SFL, I remain by and large sympathetic. I don't believe there was much if anything they could legally have done before last week but unfortunately Livingston's behaviour today has just underlined the massive mistake they made in not acting more decisively a week earlier. This could and should have been set in motion a week earlier and been sorted out by now. However, they made that mistake and are now paying the price in their credibility. It's hard to see what else they could actually have done this week apart from perhaps bottle out and offer a points deduction on Wednesday instead of relegation. Livingston's conduct today leaves them looking worse than it needed to though, something I have no doubt is exactly what it was intended to do. There are no winners in this. The integrity of the competition is already harmed. Livingston have made themselves a complete joke. Airdrie United and Cowdenbeath are shunted from pillar to post with a whole harder division to play in than they've prepared for. Ross County and Arbroath have teams to face that they can't possibly have prepared properly to face. The whole of the third division potentially have a squad (if it stays together) that is much too good for that level to compete with all season off, at this point, an even footing. It's an utter nonsense and the blame for that mostly lies squarely with Livingston, starting with Massone, continuing with McGruther and culminating in the 'Horsemen'. I'll climb off my soapbox now! Edited August 7, 2009 by Skyline Drifter 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted August 7, 2009 Share Posted August 7, 2009 His role is to get the best deal possible for the creditors and club and that means pursuing any route which would result in more money into the club and out to the creditors. THis action is entirely what we would expect him to do by not prejudicing the outcome by being seen to accept 3rd division football whilst an appeal is ongoing.SIMPLES Well that is a 'simple' case, because what is happening in the real world is that the appeal was explicitly not being 'prejudiced' by Livingston playing tomorrow, and the bids for the club will be harmed by the reality of a points deduction/expulsion from the SFL. Therefore McGruther's reasoning is logically incorrect and at worst completely stupid. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Master Posted August 7, 2009 Share Posted August 7, 2009 Because by allowing it to happen the SFL will be breaking their own rules. Actually, there's no need to quote the rule now: I know what one you mean. You've misinterpreted it, though. It doesn't mean that the appeal has succeeded just by submitting it and it then needs reverted back. It just means that once the meeting has taken place, the appeal stands unless a majority of the votes cast at the meeting support the Management Committee. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthBank Posted August 7, 2009 Share Posted August 7, 2009 (edited) I can see both side to the situation here.Livi feel as though they should be in the first division therefore they are not wanting to play third division football. I assume they have had some legal advise that if they were to play third division football then it would be seen as though the have accepted the decision... which obviously they haven't. On the other hand, they have broken the rules and have been punished, and as far as I am concerned they should accept the punishment and jsut get on with the games, and trying to rescue their club... If the SFL use the precedent of Hamilton, Livingston will be goven a 15 point deduction, and be sat bottom of the third division ! What Livi feel is irrelevant. They went into administration. The LMC decided the punishment was demotion to the third division. Livi were informed of this decision. The only grey area is when does the punishment start? The SPL clearly are stating the punishment starts with immediate effect as they issued new fixtures. Livi are chancing their arm in that there is nothing in writing about when it starts. In light of there being nothing in the Rule Book then I would assume that legally, the governing body ie the LMC's decision would stand, because that is the role of the LMC, until all the Member clubs ratified or rejected it. There is no way the clubs would now reject that decision in the current circumstances. Livingstone have alienated all the other clubs in the League and now have given the LMC the option of throwing them out the league as there is no appeal against failing to fulfill a fixture and the LMC can do what they want as a punishment. Edited August 7, 2009 by NorthBank 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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