The New Raith Rovers Thread

[Double Jack D]

16 team top flight is never gonna happen. A larger than 16 is not likely for at least a generation and would require a monumental shift in the financial and quality base that currently exists.

We don't know the voting structure for sure yet but Im not opposed to a method that gives the clubs higher up the structure more say. The one member one vote is what ultimately led to the formation of the SPL as the bigger clubs felt there was an unfair balance of power to clubs with only a few hundred fans. That said, the structure should never be so that a handful of clubs can decide (or veto) everything, at either end of the spectrum and I don't think its unreasonable that there should be a weighting toward the bigger clubs.

The option on the table isn't ideal to me, but the ideals differ from fan to fan and club to club. What isn't in doubt is that we must get the senior game back under one body and we must have a more equitable split between top and second tier. That is the massive step forward that everyone agrees should happen. The 12-12-18 may be great it may be awful but i don't think you can say it will be terrible and 2 up 2 down would be brilliant. I certainly wouldn't refuse the deal on the table over a pedantic difference like that.

[South Lanarkshire Jag]

When was Raith Rovers last home postponement?

Just asking out of curiousity.

[Paco]

When was Raith Rovers last home postponement?

Just asking out of curiousity.

Late 2010 against Cowdenbeath I think. It's been a while.

Kirkcaldy isn't even especially wet today, but the pitch really has been totally ruined by playing Hamilton in the snow.

[Michael W]

16 team top flight is never gonna happen. A larger than 16 is not likely for at least a generation and would require a monumental shift in the financial and quality base that currently exists. We don't know the voting structure for sure yet but Im not opposed to a method that gives the clubs higher up the structure more say. The one member one vote is what ultimately led to the formation of the SPL as the bigger clubs felt there was an unfair balance of power to clubs with only a few hundred fans. That said, the structure should never be so that a handful of clubs can decide (or veto) everything, at either end of the spectrum and I don't think its unreasonable that there should be a weighting toward the bigger clubs. The option on the table isn't ideal to me, but the ideals differ from fan to fan and club to club. What isn't in doubt is that we must get the senior game back under one body and we must have a more equitable split between top and second tier. That is the massive step forward that everyone agrees should happen. The 12-12-18 may be great it may be awful but i don't think you can say it will be terrible and 2 up 2 down would be brilliant. I certainly wouldn't refuse the deal on the table over a pedantic difference like that.

Why are you happy to see clubs higher up given more say? Do you think they know what's best for us and can be trusted to look at the game as a whole rather than their own self interest? I've no doubt you would have been the first to moan if the SFL had operated such a structure and the 1st Division clubs had more say than we did when we were in Division Two.

Giving clubs higher up more weight won't change what we have now - deadlock.

The ending of automatic promotion and relegation would be ridiculous - what would Partick Thistle, Dunfermline and Morton have had to play for over the last 8 or so fixtures, had this structure been operating?

The weather also can play havoc with this system. We currently have Morton having played their 22 games, but there are teams who have played up to 3 games less than this. How do we clear fixture backlogs? Do we just put the whole season on hold until the backlog can be cleared? The SPL sides have the advantage here with their undersoil heating which, theoretically, should mean less games are called off. How do you think they'll react to seeing things put into jeopardy by the league below?

I never said two up two down would be brilliant. It is however preferable to a system that adds rather than removes meaningless games, fails to relegate failing teams/promote successful ones automatically and could easily unravel due to call offs, which are a consequence of living in a country like Scotland.

And this is before we get to the budgetary concerns of not knowing who you'll be playing nearly 40% of your season against.

[Scary Bear]

Why are you happy to see clubs higher up given more say? Do you think they know what's best for us and can be trusted to look at the game as a whole rather than their own self interest? I've no doubt you would have been the first to moan if the SFL had operated such a structure and the 1st Division clubs had more say than we did when we were in Division Two.

Giving clubs higher up more weight won't change what we have now - deadlock.

The ending of automatic promotion and relegation would be ridiculous - what would Partick Thistle, Dunfermline and Morton have had to play for over the last 8 or so fixtures, had this structure been operating?

The weather also can play havoc with this system. We currently have Morton having played their 22 games, but there are teams who have played up to 3 games less than this. How do we clear fixture backlogs? Do we just put the whole season on hold until the backlog can be cleared? The SPL sides have the advantage here with their undersoil heating which, theoretically, should mean less games are called off. How do you think they'll react to seeing things put into jeopardy by the league below?

I never said two up two down would be brilliant. It is however preferable to a system that adds rather than removes meaningless games, fails to relegate failing teams/promote successful ones automatically and could easily unravel due to call offs, which are a consequence of living in a country like Scotland.

And this is before we get to the budgetary concerns of not knowing who you'll be playing nearly 40% of your season against.

I seem to recall that back in the days before the SPL, the Premier League clubs' votes still counted more than those of the teams in lower leagues.

The SPL is the worst thing that's happened to Scottish Football in the time I've taken an interest in it; so from 1986 to the present day. Anything that sees the merging of the SPL and SFL back into one league body is a good thing. I don't like the proposed format with the splits either, as it may mean that top flight clubs will rarely be relegated. However, it will probably throw up decent games against at least one of the city sides (Dundee United, Aberdeen, Hearts, Hibs), as in recent times one of them generally gets off to a bad start.

When the 8-8-8 split (I hate splits!) happens, how does promotion/relegation work? For example in the middle 8 (not that we'll likely be there), Will the top 4 teams be in the SPL next season and the bottom 4 be in the 1st Division?

Is it still 2 relegated from the bottom 8? As we'll likely be in the bottom 8, what are we playing for? A wee bit more money (maybe) and the chance of avoiding relegation?

Edited February 9, 2013 by Scary Bear

[Michael W]

When the 8-8-8 split (I hate splits!) happens, how does promotion/relegation work? For example in the middle 8 (not that we'll likely be there), Will the top 4 teams be in the SPL next season and the bottom 4 be in the 1st Division?

Yes.

Is it still 2 relegated from the bottom 8? As we'll likely be in the bottom 8, what are we playing for? A wee bit more money (maybe) and the chance of avoiding relegation?

As of yet, no-one knows. It would be a very, very poor show if less than two teams were promoted from a league of 18. Indeed, that would be even more stagnant than the one up system to the SPL that we have currently.

[Double Jack D]

16 team top flight is never gonna happen. A larger than 16 is not likely for at least a generation and would require a monumental shift in the financial and quality base that currently exists. We don't know the voting structure for sure yet but Im not opposed to a method that gives the clubs higher up the structure more say. The one member one vote is what ultimately led to the formation of the SPL as the bigger clubs felt there was an unfair balance of power to clubs with only a few hundred fans. That said, the structure should never be so that a handful of clubs can decide (or veto) everything, at either end of the spectrum and I don't think its unreasonable that there should be a weighting toward the bigger clubs. The option on the table isn't ideal to me, but the ideals differ from fan to fan and club to club. What isn't in doubt is that we must get the senior game back under one body and we must have a more equitable split between top and second tier. That is the massive step forward that everyone agrees should happen. The 12-12-18 may be great it may be awful but i don't think you can say it will be terrible and 2 up 2 down would be brilliant. I certainly wouldn't refuse the deal on the table over a pedantic difference like that.

Why are you happy to see clubs higher up given more say? Do you think they know what's best for us and can be trusted to look at the game as a whole rather than their own self interest? I've no doubt you would have been the first to moan if the SFL had operated such a structure and the 1st Division clubs had more say than we did when we were in Division Two.

Giving clubs higher up more weight won't change what we have now - deadlock.

The ending of automatic promotion and relegation would be ridiculous - what would Partick Thistle, Dunfermline and Morton have had to play for over the last 8 or so fixtures, had this structure been operating?

The weather also can play havoc with this system. We currently have Morton having played their 22 games, but there are teams who have played up to 3 games less than this. How do we clear fixture backlogs? Do we just put the whole season on hold until the backlog can be cleared? The SPL sides have the advantage here with their undersoil heating which, theoretically, should mean less games are called off. How do you think they'll react to seeing things put into jeopardy by the league below?

I never said two up two down would be brilliant. It is however preferable to a system that adds rather than removes meaningless games, fails to relegate failing teams/promote successful ones automatically and could easily unravel due to call offs, which are a consequence of living in a country like Scotland.

And this is before we get to the budgetary concerns of not knowing who you'll be playing nearly 40% of your season against.

Im happy for it because, generally speaking, clubs at the top have the bigger fan base and represent far more of the paying punter. Please don't confuse this with the big clubs getting to decide everything, however i do think there should be a weighting, absolutely.

One member one vote would mean that a block of clubs with less of a combined support than one of the Edinburgh teams could hold a majority. That, imo, is just as unhealthy as the big 2 deciding everything.

I fail to see how even a 321 structure is as closed a shop as currently exists. That's simply not true.

As for your concerns re 12-12-18, well they may all come true and it will be a nightmare. However i think you are highlighting all the possible negatives in a less than objective manner. Pre split this season there would've been plenty for us livvy falkirk and Hamilton to play for and post split, with fairer income distribution, the middle 8 could be the most competitive wee league this country has ever seen. Especially when you throw in the likelihood of local derbies, i think this mini 8 really could be something exciting and marketable that is within reach of our club to be involved in.

I may be wrong, but i wouldn't mind giving it a bash. Especially if it sorts what i see as the major ills anyway.

Would you be happy to miss the opportunity for reform over a disagreement over the structure. That imo is not the important thing here.

[Double Jack D]

Pretty sure its min 2 up 2 down with possible 3rd via playoff.

[Michael W]

The 'paying punter' argument is a complete non-starter. If we're using that, why don't we just let Rangers and Celtic decide everything? It's nonsense to suggest that a majority of clubs voting on something to go through is unfair, regardless of which clubs are for and which are against.

It's a closed shop because the top league gets 46% of the voting power. I have absolutely do doubt that these 'reserved matters' refer to changes in the construction of leagues and are probably set around the 70-75% mark. That would make it pretty much impossible to get things changed and whilst you seem comfortable of 'big' clubs being allowed to call the shots, I'm not.

I'm concentrating on the negatives because there is no way the SPL will agree to chuck a few million away unless there's a lot for them to gain. Effectively ending the prospects of there ever being a larger league and an unequal share of voting for sacrificing their elitist body seem like they would be good reasons, don't they? The SPL has stood for self preservation since its inception: why would it change now?

Yes, I am against these changes. For me, the opportunity gained is one which will give clubs more money, but lead to the alienation of fans and which will stagnate the game through a crap system with no prospects of reform.

[Double Jack D]

The 'paying punter' argument is a complete non-starter. If we're using that, why don't we just let Rangers and Celtic decide everything? It's nonsense to suggest that a majority of clubs voting on something to go through is unfair, regardless of which clubs are for and which are against.

It's a closed shop because the top league gets 46% of the voting power. I have absolutely do doubt that these 'reserved matters' refer to changes in the construction of leagues and are probably set around the 70-75% mark. That would make it pretty much impossible to get things changed and whilst you seem comfortable of 'big' clubs being allowed to call the shots, I'm not.

I'm concentrating on the negatives because there is no way the SPL will agree to chuck a few million away unless there's a lot for them to gain. Effectively ending the prospects of there ever being a larger league and an unequal share of voting for sacrificing their elitist body seem like they would be good reasons, don't they? The SPL has stood for self preservation since its inception: why would it change now?

Yes, I am against these changes. For me, the opportunity gained is one which will give clubs more money, but lead to the alienation of fans and which will stagnate the game through a crap system with no prospects of reform.

Intrigued how easily you cast aside the paying punter argument when it doesn't suit your agenda. I was quite clear that the big clubs shouldn't get to decide everything but i think its equally important that small clubs don't have power beyond what they should reasonably expect.

To suggest it will be a closed shop because the top league has 46% of the vote is incredible. You do know that we currently need over 90% of the top flight clubs ALONE to agree no matter what the rest of us think. That is a closed shop!

I would suggest, respectfully, that you ain't looking at this pragmatically and simply don't like the proposed structure. Fair enough, Im not its biggest fan either.

However, I sincerely hope the clubs can see the good in this because the status quo is a bigger threat to the Scottish game than the proposals are.

[Paco]

Pretty sure its min 2 up 2 down with possible 3rd via playoff.

Almost 100% sure it's supposed to be two automatic promotion places in the proposed 18, with the bottom two from the third group of eight going down automatically. Places 5 and 6 from the bottom eight then enter a six team play off with places 3-6 from the National League. How you work a six team play-off I'm not really sure, but there you go. That was definitely mentioned albeit not officially - the SPL couldn't care less if the SFL divides itself into leagues of two below the 12-12.

If it works like that and a pyramid system ends up in place for those at the bottom of the National League with say, the bottom two going down and another two going into play-offs, it sounds like a terrific league. Relegation wouldn't be so bad, in terms of entertainment. Top six you get a chance to go up, bottom four you could go down and you only play each side twice. Wonderful.

Edited February 9, 2013 by Paco

[Michael W]

The 'paying punter', regardless of club affiliation, wants to see things that their clubs do not. In particular, I'm thinking of larger leagues here. Why clubs should be given a larger share of the vote based on their fanbase is utter nonsense, especially when those views aren't even consistent with what their fans want to see. Why should Hearts (for example) get a larger share of the vote to vote against the wishes of their fans? That's bad enough when it's one vote, but 3 votes? Even worse value for the fans.

These changes aren't even being proposed with the 'paying punter' in mind; they never are. That's the bottom line here.

So what if 22 'diddy teams' vote for something the larger clubs don't want? That's democracy. One league share = one vote, in my book.

I never pretended the SPL wasn't a closed shop at the moment. Indeed, Aberdeen blocked an attempt to overturn the voting system - an absolutely astonishing thing to do. However, it highlights the fact that the reform is practically worthless as far as reforming the game post 12-12-18, which I can appreciate is something that I hope everyone wants to see. The reality is that it's not going to happen, and we'll be stuck with that clusterfuck indefinitely.

You're half right - I don;t like the system. However, I'd reluctantly accept it were I to believe that future attempts at getting the measures I want to see through would not be shot down in flames. That not being the case, I'm out.

Edited to add - perhaps the saddest thing of all is the sheer apathy towards this. The 12-12-18 thread has pretty much died a death, and we're the only two bothered enough to argue about it on here.

Edited February 9, 2013 by Michael W

[Double Jack D]

The 'paying punter', regardless of club affiliation, wants to see things that their clubs do not. In particular, I'm thinking of larger leagues here. Why clubs should be given a larger share of the vote based on their fanbase is utter nonsense, especially when those views aren't even consistent with what their fans want to see. Why should Hearts (for example) get a larger share of the vote to vote against the wishes of their fans? That's bad enough when it's one vote, but 3 votes? Even worse value for the fans.

These changes aren't even being proposed with the 'paying punter' in mind; they never are. That's the bottom line here.

So what if 22 'diddy teams' vote for something the larger clubs don't want? That's democracy. One league share = one vote, in my book.

I never pretended the SPL wasn't a closed shop at the moment. Indeed, Aberdeen blocked an attempt to overturn the voting system - an absolutely astonishing thing to do. However, it highlights the fact that the reform is practically worthless as far as reforming the game post 12-12-18, which I can appreciate is something that I hope everyone wants to see. The reality is that it's not going to happen, and we'll be stuck with that clusterfuck indefinitely.

You're half right - I don;t like the system. However, I'd reluctantly accept it were I to believe that future attempts at getting the measures I want to see through would not be shot down in flames. That not being the case, I'm out.

Edited to add - perhaps the saddest thing of all is the sheer apathy towards this. The 12-12-18 thread has pretty much died a death, and we're the only two bothered enough to argue about it on here.

Or people are coming round to it?

[Scary Bear]

Or people are coming round to it?

I'm nudging towards apathy. I'll still go to10-15 games a season, no matter what the league structure is or how bad we are. When I read that back it just sounds mental. Hopefully some day I'll come to my senses and get a worthwhile pastime.

[Double Jack D]

Or people are coming round to it?

I'm nudging towards apathy. I'll still go to10-15 games a season, no matter what the league structure is or how bad we are. When I read that back it just sounds mental. Hopefully some day I'll come to my senses and get a worthwhile pastime.

Lol, know what u mean.

The flyers sounds pretty exciting...

[roverthemoon]

These proposals offer us

One league body

Fairer distribution of income

And end to the 11-1 voting set up

The promise of a pyramid system once the SFA sort out a feeder league system

An end to shite Stadium and USH criteria

A greater possibility of promotion to the top 12

Basically all the shit that came with the invention of the SPL. It even gets rid of the SPL.

The only area it fails on is for a bigger top league.

16 is unworkable and 18 or 20 is a long term ambition that isn't going to happen anytime soon. I'd liked to have seen a 14 as an interim but hey ho. 12-12-18 gets rid of playing each other 4 times for 26 of the 42 teams so its a start.

If its shite we can restructure again as we'll have one league body and the SPL clubs will only have 46% of the vote which despite what Michael says is not a closed shop.

Grab it with both hands and lets dance on the SPL's grave

[Michael W]

The SFL teams couldn't even unanimously put Rangers in the 3rd division, don';t be surprised when they can't get the near-unanimous support to get the structure changed either.

[roverthemoon]

The 'paying punter', regardless of club affiliation, wants to see things that their clubs do not.

You talk a lot about what fans want. The Trust did a survey that showed 40% of Rovers fans thought the Board should back this proposal. A sizeable chunk of the Rovers support. And that was before the details/financial benefits were explained.

[roverthemoon]

The SFL teams couldn't even unanimously put Rangers in the 3rd division, don';t be surprised when they can't get the near-unanimous support to get the structure changed either.

But if they did they could change it without needing the support of a single top league club.

Not a closed shop. Not even close

[Michael W]

Do you think the voting system is fair?

The point is that it still vests power in the hands of top clubs, and with 'reserved matters' thus far unannounced as to what they will constitute, they will no doubt have the vetoing share when the issue of reconstruction arises. I refuse to believe the threshold for league reconstruction will be set at 50%.

Infformation regarding the unsavoury side of this has come out in dribs and drabs - there is a monumental catch that we don't know about. The SPL has a very priviledged position at the moment: why would they give this up?

As far as fan opinions go, there are several fans polls on the website indicating that people don't want 12-12-18, especially when it's pitted up against other possible systems.

Apologies, got the wrong end of the stick - even taking the proposals as a whole, you'll find plenty disagreement on them in the big thread running in this forum.

The biggest opposition does tend to focus on league structure, so maybe that isn't viewed as the most important issue. For me, however, it is.

Edited February 11, 2013 by Michael W