The New Raith Rovers Thread

[Kuma Power]

42 minutes ago, Beastie Russell said:

Probably is, but I’m lazy 

As it happens, I worked this out for one of the podcast episodes a month or so back, so updated the stats for league games while having lunch. This is not a precise science and these might be a few out as I'm going from memory and the notes I made at the time, but should give an overall picture...

We've conceded 26 goals in the league. 14 of these have been from balls into the box; 5 have been shots from outside the box; 3 have been penalties; and 4 have been other (e.g. shots from open play inside the box not immediately preceded by a cross or set piece).

Of the 14 conceded from balls into the box, 10 have been from their right/our left (7 from set pieces, 3 from open play); and 4 from their left/our right (2 from set pieces; 2 from open play).

(*just to add a clarification here, when I say 'from the right' I mean when the opposition are attacking down their right/our left )

I don't have the time to work out who was on the pitch when goals were conceded, but intuitively we seem a lot more vulnerable at set pieces when we don't have Jack Hamilton on the pitch. Also, all but one of the shots from outside the box have happened since Stanton has been injured - albeit one was the worldie from the Arbroath keeper!

 

Edited January 8 by Kuma Power

[RRFC_Liam]

7 minutes ago, Kuma Power said:

Of the 14 conceded from balls into the box, 10 have been from the right (7 from set pieces, 3 from open play); and 4 from the left (2 from set pieces; 2 from open play).

So is it from the opposition right hand side/ our left hand side? Because it seems like a lot teams target our left side 

[Kuma Power]

Just now, RRFC_Liam said:

So is it from the opposition right hand side/ our left hand side? Because it seems like a lot teams target our left side 

Yes - apologies for being unclear - just edited it now. I mean their right/our left as you say.

[RandomGuy.]

3 hours ago, Broken Algorithms said:

Is it? Most St Johnstone fans said he was pretty inept even though he was girly successful.

He was initially successful as Tommy Wright had built a great young squad built to play Davidson wanted it. Davidson got a huge amount of plaudits for Kerr/Gordon/McCart as a defence, and Ali McCann in midfield, yet it was Tommy Wright he brought them all into the first team and who put them all into a 3-5-2 shape.

Tommy Wright also had Callum Hendry and Stevie May absolutely firing, but Davidson had destroyed that within months.

Suspect Davidson will live off that double for a long, long, time. Much the same way people still say John Hughes is a good manager because he won a Scottish Cup with ICT.

[Offshore Rover]

3 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

Much the same way people still say John Hughes is a good manager because he won a Scottish Cup with ICT.

Do people still say this? Pretty sure his rep is now ruined

[RandomGuy.]

Just now, Offshore Rover said:

Do people still say this? Pretty sure his rep is now ruined

Probably not tbf, but it was definitely still being mentioned a few years ago im sure.

[SirJimmyofNic]

19 minutes ago, Kuma Power said:

Yes - apologies for being unclear - just edited it now. I mean their right/our left as you say.

That's the side that Murray and Dick are then, seems to clarify everything in a nutshell

[Beastie Russell]

10 minutes ago, SirJimmyofNic said:

That's the side that Murray and Dick are then, seems to clarify everything in a nutshell

Only two players defend set pieces

[RRFC_Liam]

9 minutes ago, SirJimmyofNic said:

That's the side that Murray and Dick are then, seems to clarify everything in a nutshell

The last couple Games I never understood why he played Murray left side and O’Reilly right even though Murray is both footed O’Reilly looks more comfortable on the left and Murray has played RCH for us before when Bene was here 

[Broken Algorithms]

19 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

Probably not tbf, but it was definitely still being mentioned a few years ago im sure.

People tend to use cup runs to justify managers when the reality is that it's easier to win cups than leagues.

Yogi and Stubbs are good examples.

[AllanJM]

7 minutes ago, Broken Algorithms said:

People tend to use cup runs to justify managers when the reality is that it's easier to win cups than leagues.

Yogi and Stubbs are good examples.

It was the same when Grant Murray left Rovers.  The pundits were doing the usual whinging about fans/clubs not giving managers a chance and kept talking about how we'd beaten Rangers in the challenge cup.

Grant Murray will always be a legend at Rovers for the cup win and for that screamer at East End (and just genuinely being a good player and by all accounts a decent guy) but the time was definitely right for him to leave when he did.

[Michael W]

12 minutes ago, AllanJM said:

It was the same when Grant Murray left Rovers.  The pundits were doing the usual whinging about fans/clubs not giving managers a chance and kept talking about how we'd beaten Rangers in the challenge cup.

Grant Murray will always be a legend at Rovers for the cup win and for that screamer at East End (and just genuinely being a good player and by all accounts a decent guy) but the time was definitely right for him to leave when he did.

It is somewhat overlooked that we very narrowly avoided the relegation playoffs that season. 3 wins in the second half of the season springs to mind as well. Winning the cup / getting to the final probably saved him from the sack. 

The season afterwards was pretty crap as well. A number of defeats at the end of the season I seem to recall. Again, a manager with less credit in the bank would've been sacked sooner. 

Pundits spend half their time throwing shit about, including at managers, then play the "not enough time", "harsh sacking because of x and y" tropes with absolutely no sense of irony. 

Edited January 8 by Michael W

[TxRover]

38 minutes ago, SirJimmyofNic said:

That's the side that Murray and Dick are then, seems to clarify everything in a nutshell

Just to clarify, what does it clarify?

That attacks down the attackers right wing are more often stopped and result in crosses while attacks on the attackers left are more often successful in penetrating the penalty area instead of resulting in a forced cross? I’m not saying that’s the case, but consider:

-A successful defence on the edge is always considered forcing the attacker away from the goal. This inevitably results in either a ball being recycled out or crossed in.

-A less successful defence will result in the attacker cutting inside the defender, followed by either a shot or lower trajectory/shorter pass/cross to the middle.

Which of these is preferable? I’d argue the first, which is why we need more than what the goals came from to judge if the problem is the defender on that side or the defence in the middle. For instance, imagine we have Paolo Maldini at LB. No one ever manages to cut inside on him, and he forces balls out, and allows the occasional cross. If the central defence doesn’t handle the occasional cross well, we might be conceding goals from our left side, and you might jump to a conclusion (wrongly) that Dick should start over Maldini.

Stats are useful, but need context. To make those numbers truly useful, we’d need to see total attacks and their results.

[RandomGuy.]

34 minutes ago, Broken Algorithms said:

People tend to use cup runs to justify managers when the reality is that it's easier to win cups than leagues.

Yogi and Stubbs are good examples.

Aye, its easily forgotten we were very close to being (deservedly) knocked out by Dunfermline in the League Cup, before going through on penalties.

Then in the Scottish Cup it took a 120th minute goal from our goalkeeper to take it to penalties again.

Those wee marginal moments mean everything in cups, while we simultaneously broke goalscoring records in the league by scoring just 9 goals at home all season.

[CumbyDiamond]

On 06/01/2024 at 22:13, RRFC_Liam said:

Anyone else have the corner pet hate that most teams leaves a player up against us but we never do it against the opposition? I know we’ve been doing it for years but surely at some point we’ve to do it it’s no like Mullin or Vaughan are aerial threats or that so if some likes them stays up incase of dodgey bounce/clearance could cause problems 

Never going to happen under Murray I can count on one hand the amount of times he did it in the 4 years at us, was a constant frustration with much of our support

[RRFC_Liam]

14 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

Aye, its easily forgotten we were very close to being (deservedly) knocked out by Dunfermline in the League Cup, before going through on penalties.

Then in the Scottish Cup it took a 120th minute goal from our goalkeeper to take it to penalties again.

Those wee marginal moments mean everything in cups, while we simultaneously broke goalscoring records in the league by scoring just 9 goals at home all season.

Wait hawd the bus 9 goals all season at home? If that’s the case the QP could in for one hell of ride they seem to score a lot of goals but also concede so if Davidson does ruin the top part of the pitch I can’t see how they stay up 

[RRFC_Liam]

33 minutes ago, Michael W said:

It is somewhat overlooked that we very narrowly avoided the relegation playoffs that season. 3 wins in the second half of the season springs to mind as well. Winning the cup / getting to the final probably saved him from the sack. 

The season afterwards was pretty crap as well. A number of defeats at the end of the season I seem to recall. Again, a manager with less credit in the bank would've been sacked sooner. 

Pundits spend half their time throwing shit about, including at managers, then play the "not enough time", "harsh sacking because of x and y" tropes with absolutely no sense of irony. 

Different circumstances I know but it was the same with McGlynn after Killie home game in the 1-0 win we went on a downward spiral and getting to the cup final basically saved his job because there was rumours of him getting punted then we win the cup and let him see out his contract but the league form the 2nd half of that season was terrible 

[RandomGuy.]

10 minutes ago, RRFC_Liam said:

Wait hawd the bus 9 goals all season at home? If that’s the case the QP could in for one hell of ride they seem to score a lot of goals but also concede so if Davidson does ruin the top part of the pitch I can’t see how they stay up 

Aye.

Home record under Davidson was...

20/21 - 19 games, 5 wins, 9 goals

21/22 - 19 games, 5 wins, 15 goals

22/23 - 15 games, 3 wins, 14 goals

Even including away games it was always averaging under 1 goal a game.

[SirJimmyofNic]

35 minutes ago, TxRover said:

Just to clarify, what does it clarify?

That attacks down the attackers right wing are more often stopped and result in crosses while attacks on the attackers left are more often successful in penetrating the penalty area instead of resulting in a forced cross? I’m not saying that’s the case, but consider:

-A successful defence on the edge is always considered forcing the attacker away from the goal. This inevitably results in either a ball being recycled out or crossed in.

-A less successful defence will result in the attacker cutting inside the defender, followed by either a shot or lower trajectory/shorter pass/cross to the middle.

Which of these is preferable? I’d argue the first, which is why we need more than what the goals came from to judge if the problem is the defender on that side or the defence in the middle. For instance, imagine we have Paolo Maldini at LB. No one ever manages to cut inside on him, and he forces balls out, and allows the occasional cross. If the central defence doesn’t handle the occasional cross well, we might be conceding goals from our left side, and you might jump to a conclusion (wrongly) that Dick should start over Maldini.

Stats are useful, but need context. To make those numbers truly useful, we’d need to see total attacks and their results.

Clarifies that that's our weakest side, and not just from a defence point of view, can only hope it doesn't happen as often as it has so far, 

Is it down to the 4-1-3-2 formation or a variation of that, that's causing the problem, also has Murray fully recovered from his shoulder problem  

[TxRover]

2 minutes ago, SirJimmyofNic said:

Clarifies that that's our weakest side, and not just from a defence point of view, can only hope it doesn't happen as often as it has so far, 

Is it down to the 4-1-3-2 formation or a variation of that, that's causing the problem, also has Murray fully recovered from his shoulder problem  

How does that suggest it’s our weakest side? Like I pointed out above, it may be our strongest side for keeping the attackers out and forcing crosses or recycles, which then defeat the central defence. The cross doesn’t enter the net on its own, someone has to nurture and encourage it.

The 4-1-3-2 seems possibly susceptible to random deep shots, since Stanton exited, but that’s  a short window of experience. On Murray, how do you tell? Would it be less mugging attackers in the mixer or something else.