Sergeant Wilson Posted April 27, 2016 Share Posted April 27, 2016 FFS, I can't believe that that the findings of a jury, after sitting for two years,are still being questioned. Archie and me have already posted a film of what went on. Lots of reading here, but those who are interested, the evidence is all here. https://hillsboroughinquests.independent.gov.uk/ I've read it and agree with it all except for question 7. Supporters couldn't reasonably forseen the extent of the consequences but I still believe their was a behavioural aspect.It's a forum, I'm not bound by the jury's decision. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theo Snelders Posted April 27, 2016 Share Posted April 27, 2016 I've read it and agree with it all except for question 7. Supporters couldn't reasonably forseen the extent of the consequences but I still believe their was a behavioural aspect. It's a forum, I'm not bound by the jury's decision. Fair point,and neither am I bound by their decision- though I've followed this case closely enough to agree with them. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergeant Wilson Posted April 27, 2016 Share Posted April 27, 2016 That's what happens when people are blinkered/racist/bigoted I'm afraid.You'll have to point out any evidence of that. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayrmad Posted April 27, 2016 Share Posted April 27, 2016 You'll have to point out any evidence of that. There's plenty of evidence been posted on here over the years. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dundeefc1783 Posted April 27, 2016 Share Posted April 27, 2016 Has there ever actually been any reliable evidence that proves there were any ticketless fans in attendance? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayrmad Posted April 27, 2016 Share Posted April 27, 2016 I've read it and agree with it all except for question 7. Supporters couldn't reasonably forseen the extent of the consequences but I still believe their was a behavioural aspect. It's a forum, I'm not bound by the jury's decision. The behavioural aspect was that fans were at the back in numbers, that in itself doesn't mean they deserve blame, it could easily have been the victims who went home relatively unscathed physically that day if they'd turned up later. But for some individuals the emergency services were an absolute disgrace on the day. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayrmad Posted April 27, 2016 Share Posted April 27, 2016 (edited) Has there ever actually been any reliable evidence that proves there were any ticketless fans in attendance? No. Edited April 27, 2016 by ayrmad 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dundeefc1783 Posted April 27, 2016 Share Posted April 27, 2016 Sure it was mentioned on the anatomy of a disaster video that 30 of the victims were actually people who came in through the opened gate and went into the pen and within in minutes due to the force of the crush they ended up near the front of the pen. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyrshireTon Posted April 27, 2016 Share Posted April 27, 2016 Manslaughter. That is what charges would be under the terms you describe. Can't explain your second point,although Liverpool did ask fans to send tickets back in to attempt to account for all those in attendance. Those who died had tickets on their person. Thank you for the reply.Manslaughter is a charge (or lesser verdict) which I'd imagine would be used if prosecutions come around. I was referring more to phrase on the ruling, as putting "manslaughter" on it would have opened a real can of worms. Not arguing with the fact that the deaths occurred due to someone's actions, though - but if I'm hit by a bus then it's as a result of mine or the driver's actions - it's unlawful either way which makes me feel the phrase is a moot point. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogmc Posted April 27, 2016 Share Posted April 27, 2016 Fairly astonishing that people think they know better than a jury which sat through 2 years of evidence and came to unanimous conclusions on all but one question. Shows how much influence the tabloids still have. Also the sun refusing to give the verdict front page coverage is an utter disgrace. Cowardice of the highest order. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joey Jo Jo Junior Shabadoo Posted April 27, 2016 Share Posted April 27, 2016 Fairly astonishing that people think they know better than a jury which sat through 2 years of evidence and came to unanimous conclusions on all but one question. Shows how much influence the tabloids still have. Also the sun refusing to give the verdict front page coverage is an utter disgrace. Cowardice of the highest order. You've never been on a Jury, have you? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross. Posted April 27, 2016 Share Posted April 27, 2016 Was changing ends not having both sets of fans coming in the "wrong" way, i.e. Leppings Lane was the end convenient for Liverpool and the other end convenient for Nottingham? Read an article earlier that touched on this. I think it was the Taylor report they quoted which basically said that even if the fans had been at the opposite ends, what happened would likely have had happened anyway. The only difference would be that Forrest fans would have died instead of Liverpool fans. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergeant Wilson Posted April 27, 2016 Share Posted April 27, 2016 (edited) Fairly astonishing that people think they know better than a jury which sat through 2 years of evidence and came to unanimous conclusions on all but one question. Shows how much influence the tabloids still have. Also the sun refusing to give the verdict front page coverage is an utter disgrace. Cowardice of the highest order.So you've come on a forum where opinions are voiced and you're astonished that people give opinions?And opinions by definition are not necessarily based on all the facts. Edited April 27, 2016 by Sergeant Wilson 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fueradejuego Posted April 27, 2016 Share Posted April 27, 2016 Sure it was mentioned on the anatomy of a disaster video that 30 of the victims were actually people who came in through the opened gate and went into the pen and within in minutes due to the force of the crush they ended up near the front of the pen. It was confirmed around 30 of the victims were still outside of the ground at 14:45. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falcor Roar Posted April 27, 2016 Share Posted April 27, 2016 The standing area of Leppings Lane was granted a capacity of 7,200 and it was decided later a safe figure should have been 5,425. 2,900 fans also accessed the corner stand from the 7 turnstiles at the back. It was a death trap and the only reason this hadn't happened sooner was because of careful planning from the previous match commander who did not meet with David Duckenfield. People can speculate that the fans were to blame all they want. The street access to the stand was a constricted bottleneck and as has been mentioned, an accordion effect can occur in these situations which can account for the crushing outside the stand. Excess drinking or numerous ticketless fans as far as i'm aware has not been proven. It certainly is not the cause of what happened which some have suggested. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itzdrk Posted April 27, 2016 Share Posted April 27, 2016 The innocent surging fans Absolutely mental 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Rogic Posted April 27, 2016 Share Posted April 27, 2016 The innocent surging fans Absolutely mental Aye you clearly know better than the thousands of witnesses and legal proffesionals and jurors who sat through two years worth of evidence 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falcor Roar Posted April 27, 2016 Share Posted April 27, 2016 I think the South Yorkshire police are just as culpable as the system which allowed the stadium to exist in that state. Some people seem certain that the fans behaviour had to have played a part in the event. The onus would be on them to show that to have been the case though. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pull My Strings Posted April 27, 2016 Share Posted April 27, 2016 Thank you for the reply. Manslaughter is a charge (or lesser verdict) which I'd imagine would be used if prosecutions come around. I was referring more to phrase on the ruling, as putting "manslaughter" on it would have opened a real can of worms. Not arguing with the fact that the deaths occurred due to someone's actions, though - but if I'm hit by a bus then it's as a result of mine or the driver's actions - it's unlawful either way which makes me feel the phrase is a moot point. No, it's not unlawful to accidentally walk in front of a bus, nor to accidentally run someone over in a bus (unless acting without proper care). It is unlawful to act in a grossly negligent manner and thereby cause the death of someone else. That's what happened here. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergeant Wilson Posted April 27, 2016 Share Posted April 27, 2016 I think the South Yorkshire police are just as culpable as the system which allowed the stadium to exist in that state. Some people seem certain that the fans behaviour had to have played a part in the event. The onus would be on them to show that to have been the case though.It might not pass the threshold of criminality, but people continued to go into areas that were overcrowded, was there a rush near the kick off, was there no pushing at all?As I said, they probably couldn't anticipate what followed, but a crush happened. In hindsight the sensible thing to do was not try to get in. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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