Big Rangers Administration/Liquidation Thread - All chat here!

[hysterix]

1. He offers £8.5m (plus Jelavic money)

That's just wrong, isn't it? Insisting on £1 in the £1 from all your own debtors, while simultaneously shafting your creditors to the tune of a few pennies in the £1, if they are lucky. Don't forget that they've also had full value for the £14M of PAYE/VAT/NI they chose to stop remitting in November, despite having the money to pay it at the time. No matter how I look at that, I can't see HMRC being happy with the proposition "I know we've burned through £14M of your cash in the last six months, but how's about we call it quits for this £700K I've got left? It's a great deal for you because it's a shit load better than nothing!"

If Green has access to serious, serious money then the honourable thing to do would be to settle all the debts in full while accepting and working stoically through any period of sanctions. At that point, Rangers could be generally regarded as rehabilitated.

...sorry, have to stop there, just saw something pass the window and I'm going to check if it was a flying pig.

Edited May 15, 2012 by hysterix

[thelegendthatis]

Forgive me if I'm missing something simple about Green's proposals, but can the contract with H&D be as straighforwards as this:

1. He offers £8.5m (plus Jelavic money) for a CVA [lets forget whether BTC is decided or not and the total Rangers debt]

2. Should the CVA proposal be declined, he buys the assets (lock, stock n barrel) through a pre-pack liquidation for £8.5m and forms a newco. (the £8.5m under liquidation is split between creditors)

The second part above tries to bear in mind that H&D have indicated that Murray Park has a guesstimated value of £4-6m under an asset-sale liquidation, whilst they assign Ibrox as having no notional value at all in such a sale as a stand-alone stadium without a resident team.

If the above were true, Green could 'blackmail' HMRC into agreeing a CVA in that the public purse would get no more under liquidation (probably less) whilst also putting 200 people out of work and harming a 'Scottish institution' (which would be politically difficult).

Can't see this being the way ahead.

1. You don't blackmail HMRC or even try to. Not a wise move.

2. Ibrox has a value, even if not for football every fortnight. Conference facilities and the office blocks used by Murray's call centre, retail shop etc. Conducted tour business 'this is where the players used to change'....'here is a photograph of a full stadium'.

3. Craig Whyte holds the cards on Ibrox and Murray Park.

4. I would have agreed with the political fallout risk from 'harming' a Scottish institution 91 days ago. But not now. The report from the SFA killed Rangers as a business worth saving by exposing how it ran itself. Add to that the xenophobic attacks on Miller, and the Rangers anti social history and you have a gaping sore in Scottish society which can now be dealt with.

.

The police will also be jumping in soon, which will only eliminate any credibility that was left. The truth will keep coming out and each time people will wonder how this was all allowed to happen and to continue happening.

I know it is not scientific but most people I know (many of whom are not football fans) would be delighted to see Rangers disappear TOTALLY.

Checking on the call centre business I found http://www.scotsman....0-000-1-1171027

"Mr Lipka, who is Polish, said comments were frequently made suggesting the Irish callers were stupid.

He also claimed call handlers regularly made racist comments regarding those calling about student loans."

Edited May 15, 2012 by thelegendthatis

[thelegendthatis]

...sorry, have to stop there, just saw something pass the window and I'm going to check if it was a flying pig.

That 1 member of Green's consortium outed

Edited May 15, 2012 by thelegendthatis

[Milo]

Rejoice!

In the back of our junk-filled bedroom cupboard I have just found,

1) a $1 dollar bill and

2) a five rouble note (with a lovely picture of that nice Mr. Lenin on it).

I hereby donate both to the P&B 'let's buy Rangers' fund. Magnanimous or what?

Just rejoice at that news!

Edited May 15, 2012 by Milo

[Jambo'ness]

latest news - Haudit & Daudit in commercial tie up with Pie & Bovril. For every new page, £1 is being split between P&B and H&D. Money is being put up by Simon Cowell.

[54_and_counting]

Apparently the reason why a CVA will likely be agreed is because un the CVA HMRC, Ticketus and everyone else will get something, if the club is liquidated then Whyte gets first dibs on 18million quid, then whats left after that is divided up amongst the creditors

Now considering that the players can supposedly walk for nothing in a liquidation scenario, that simply leaves Ibrox and Murray Park as sole Rangers Football Club Assets, which you most likely not get much for simply because MP can't be used for housing etc and Ibrox has a listed front part and would take significant finance to develop into something else.

Its to do with Whyte's floating charge that he has, or something like that

I havent a fecking clue and im just sitting back waiting for it to end one way or another, but above is the theory of why a CVA is quite a possibility

[PeeTeeJag]

Hang on a second...

Did we know McDonald was in prior to this? I've read a few things on Green and recall something covering the idea that McDonald is the man pulling all the strings and he tends to use Green as a sort of frontman for his operations. He sounds like a right dodgy b*****d. Now if only I could remember where I'd been reading about him and if someone could be bothered digging the dirt on him...

From The Independent 02/08/98...........

"McDonald's board embarked with an auctioneer's enthusiasm on a sale of players. The midfielder Don Hutchison, and forwards Brian Deane and Jan Aage Fjortoft were chief among the bargains. Spackman resigned. McDonald took umbrage at popular criticism and retreated from the football club boardroom to the safety of the company chairmanship.

He had claimed that "overspending" on players risked "financial suicide", a plausible comment but one which sent the share price into equally understandable freefall. Charles Green, the group chief executive, needed a police escort out of Bramall Lane, and promptly handed in his resignation. "

[LiamDFC]

I might be wrong but from Livingston's point of view, while the original punishment was handed down by the SFL they did take the case (eventually) to the SFA which upheld it. If the SFA were to reverse the decision on Rangers then Livingston would ask why they weren't granted the same leeway. To be honest they don't really have a case since the rule they broke was based off the fact they went insolvent, however if Rangers eventually hit the same path and come out clean via appeals then they might have a case.

Same for Dundee, if memory serves. Pretty sure we had our appeal thrown back at us, as Rangers' should.

[Musketeer Gripweed]

Apparently the reason why a CVA will likely be agreed is because un the CVA HMRC, Ticketus and everyone else will get something, if the club is liquidated then Whyte gets first dibs on 18million quid, then whats left after that is divided up amongst the creditors

Now considering that the players can supposedly walk for nothing in a liquidation scenario, that simply leaves Ibrox and Murray Park as sole Rangers Football Club Assets, which you most likely not get much for simply because MP can't be used for housing etc and Ibrox has a listed front part and would take significant finance to develop into something else.

Its to do with Whyte's floating charge that he has, or something like that

I havent a fecking clue and im just sitting back waiting for it to end one way or another, but above is the theory of why a CVA is quite a possibility

Did you not read that Express article? Your new owners are minted.

[PeeTeeJag]

So let me see if I am understanding this.......................

They want to buy the club for minimum amount of money, go down the CVA route because they cant pay of all the club's debt, BUT have enough money if all goes well for a war chest???

This is very much like a candidate for the Monster Raving Looney Party saying that if they get elected they will give everyone a ferrari, a big television, and free sky sports for ever. Then come election night when they havent been obviously havent been elected, turn around and say "Awwwwwwwww thats a shame, you could have had so much under my leadership."

[thisal]

Apparently the reason why a CVA will likely be agreed is because un the CVA HMRC, Ticketus and everyone else will get something, if the club is liquidated then Whyte gets first dibs on 18million quid, then whats left after that is divided up amongst the creditors

Now considering that the players can supposedly walk for nothing in a liquidation scenario, that simply leaves Ibrox and Murray Park as sole Rangers Football Club Assets, which you most likely not get much for simply because MP can't be used for housing etc and Ibrox has a listed front part and would take significant finance to develop into something else.

Its to do with Whyte's floating charge that he has, or something like that

I havent a fecking clue and im just sitting back waiting for it to end one way or another, but above is the theory of why a CVA is quite a possibility

You're just feart you'll have to change your name to "0 and likely to remain for some time"

[Richie]

I may be wrong but to escape uefa sanctions, do rangers not have to pay off all football debt, to what would be unsecured creditors. I think hmrc stance is that they will only agree cva under certain conditions. One being that all unsecured creditors treated equally. So it looks like either face uefa sanction or lose cva.

[54_and_counting]

Did you not read that Express article? Your new owners are minted.

as such i believe all media to be utter bullshit, even the good news

You're just feart you'll have to change your name to "0 and likely to remain for some time"

depends if we start in the 3rd division, it may have to change to "0_but_gonna_romp_up_the_divisions"

[Hedgecutter]

latest news - Haudit & Daudit in commercial tie up with Pie & Bovril. For every new page, £1 is being split between P&B and H&D. Money is being put up by Simon Cowell.

No excuses for not putting through 500 H&D Big Rangers Thread 2012 t-shirts then. Who's putting them out to tender or will it just be done through the P&B Shop?

[Granny Danger]

...sorry, have to stop there, just saw something pass the window and I'm going to check if it was a flying pig.

That 1 member of Green's consortium outed

So you mean his bid's not kosher?

[sydney]

Apparently the reason why a CVA will likely be agreed is because un the CVA HMRC, Ticketus and everyone else will get something, if the club is liquidated then Whyte gets first dibs on 18million quid, then whats left after that is divided up amongst the creditors

Now considering that the players can supposedly walk for nothing in a liquidation scenario, that simply leaves Ibrox and Murray Park as sole Rangers Football Club Assets, which you most likely not get much for simply because MP can't be used for housing etc and Ibrox has a listed front part and would take significant finance to develop into something else.

Its to do with Whyte's floating charge that he has, or something like that

I havent a fecking clue and im just sitting back waiting for it to end one way or another, but above is the theory of why a CVA is quite a possibility

The first part of your post is something I've read a few time and I guess this is what Green is hoping might happen. On the other hand, you may have read HMRC's own guidance on acceptance of CVAs and there are couple of things in particular which would be major stumbling blocks to this being agreed with HMRC:

1. They cannot accept a CVA if there is evidence of some creditors being favoured over others. This would mean that Hearts, Rapid Vienna et al would also need to accept 5p in the pound or whatever it turns out to be (the law is different in England where football debts are excluded so can be favoured I believe)- cue UEFA involvement if this happens.

2. They cannot accept a CVA if there is evidence of previous willful wrongdoing (eg. knowingly withholding tax payments). This is a bit more tricky as much of this was down to the current owner and with a new owner there could be an argument that this is being addressed. however, given that the SPL found that the club itself was guilty and others in the club had knowledge of what was going on, this may be difficult to swing. Tomorrow will clarify. I can see the HMRC reading the SPL and SFA judgements very closely.

The other issue is that the HMRC may consider the "bigger picture" and decide that taking the risk of getting less under liquidation is much better in the long run as it will send out a powerful message to the rest of football in the UK. From an honest taxpayers viewpoint, I sincerely hope that this is what they do as what Green & Co seem to be trying to do is morally corrupt if nothing else and it truly hacks me off the way some already wealthy people seem to spend a heck of alot of effort to avoid paying taxes to the detriment of UK plc (ie. all of us). If they think they pay too much tax in the U, then f*ck off somewhere else.

I feel sorry for the genuine Rangers fans in all of this. There's one thing that's certain- Green & Co are in this to make money, not because they want to own Rangers FC per se.

Although I feel sorry for the genuine fans, I certainly don't feel sorry for Rangers FC Limited (or whatever the registered name is) as they have been as corrupt as f*ck and deserve what's coming to them. All will become clear in due course.....

If I were a betting man, I'd say liquidation, new club and re-application to the league (which they will get). Whether that's the SPL or SFL remains to be seen. A few weeks ago, I'd have said it was odds on that it would be the SPL, but I sense a ever bigger growing groundswell of opinion (amongst not just most fans who have always been against direct entry to the SPL, but also alot of the media and also other clubs themselves who seem to be starting slowly to break rank and voice their opinions (eg. Dunfermline, Hibs)). If the SFA appeal upholds the original punishments tomorrow, we may see one or two more.

Edited May 15, 2012 by sydney

[PeeTeeJag]

Apparently the reason why a CVA will likely be agreed is because un the CVA HMRC, Ticketus and everyone else will get something, if the club is liquidated then Whyte gets first dibs on 18million quid, then whats left after that is divided up amongst the creditors

Now considering that the players can supposedly walk for nothing in a liquidation scenario, that simply leaves Ibrox and Murray Park as sole Rangers Football Club Assets, which you most likely not get much for simply because MP can't be used for housing etc and Ibrox has a listed front part and would take significant finance to develop into something else.

Its to do with Whyte's floating charge that he has, or something like that

I havent a fecking clue and im just sitting back waiting for it to end one way or another, but above is the theory of why a CVA is quite a possibility

The whole point of all of this is in the scheme of things rankers are small fry. Forget the pish about millions of fans, biggest club in the world potentially, greatest haul of trophies.............Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. Rankers are only a blip on the radar of british football, never mind europe.

As it stands, britain revolves around the EPL and championship. The SPL is no more than a five a side sunday morning pub league as far as engerland are concerned. However HMRC are getting their balls felt by the government to get clubs to stop taking the rip. They need to set an example, not with a big club, but a blip on the radar that will be noticed when it's no longer there and everyone is wondering where it went.

If rankers disappear, pretty much no one outside of scotland, glasgow in particular, will give a shit. Most of the world wont even notice. As usual the fans will throw the toys out of the pram or lie in the aisle of the grocery store and scream their heads off, and we will all tut and walk away.

Rankers have made the fatal mistake of thinking they were too big to be touched. They thought they were playing with the big boys who "get away" with playing hard and fast with the laws of the land. But in the end they were just the wee kid that runs about after a gang and is the patsy that takes the fall instead of them.

HMRC are sending out a warning to the real big clubs that they had better get their house in order coz they are pissing away millions/billions of £s that we sorely need.

If I can sum up the position rankers are in then I think Samuel L Jackson puts the point across nicely in Pulp Fiction when he walks into a room, and whilst trying to get information out of a guy who is dithering, shoots someone just lying on a sofa. Then says "I'm sorry, did I break your concentration?"

Edited May 15, 2012 by PeeTeeJag

[Ross.]

"We only have £8.5m for a CVA"

"We have millions in a war chest for Ally to spend"

Nothing more to add.

[54_and_counting]

The first part of your post is something I've read a few time and I guess this is what Green is hoping might happen. On the other hand, you may have read HMRC's own guidance on acceptance of CVAs and there are couple of things in particular which would be major stumbling blocks to this being agreed with HMRC:

1. They cannot accept a CVA if there is evidence of some creditors being favoured over others. This would mean that Hearts, Rapid Vienna et al would also need to accept 5p in the pound or whatever it turns out to be (the law is different in England where football debts are excluded so can be favoured I believe)- cue UEFA involvement if this happens.

i still dont understand how we have creditors for payments that havent been missed yet, i think thats fucking stupid, can these clubs not opt out of being a creditor until we default on the payments or something, as you say the likes of Rapid etc accepting 5p in the pound or whatever is daft

2. They cannot accept a CVA if there is evidence of previous willful wrongdoing (eg. knowingly withholding tax payments). This is a bit more tricky as much of this was down to the current owner and with a new owner there could be an argument that this is being addressed. however, given that the SPL found that the club itself was guilty and others in the club had knowledge of what was going on, this may be difficult to swing. Tomorrow will clarify. I can see the HMRC reading the SPL and SFA judgements very closely.

thats the thing, you arent required to pay your tax until the end of the financial year, Rangers could argue (indeed that wee crook whyte did argue) that it was going to be paid but they ran out of money

i know whyte did it on purpose but it will be mighty hard for HMRC to prove that as the tax year maybe only finished at the end of march or april, by that time we were in administration

[monrovianmonk]

I just do not share everyone's optimism that we are seeing the final death throes of Rangers FC. I have a very bad feeling that the SFA panel will bottle it tomorrow and suspend the transfer embargo for three years or something to let the new owners prove they aren't crooks. I also have a nasty feeling that Whyte has this stitched up so that a CVA will be accepted. If it is not then I still don't think its the end for Rangers as the SPL will vote them back in as new co. Over the years I've lost all faith in the powers that be in Scottish football to do the right thing.

Just saying....