old school Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 Me neither. He appears to have gone now any way. There's a surprise... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ned Nederlander Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 I fear season ticket sales might only be sixteen or seventeen times those of St integrity. And yet St Integrity are in the SPL, why is that ? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bendarroch Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 Me neither. He appears to have gone now any way. Not at all Insomniacs loyal. The guessing's not going well I see. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bendarroch Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 And yet St Integrity are in the SPL, why is that ? Oh dear - is there no end to the tediously redundant questions? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Tennis Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 Honestly can't think of any :-) I can't think of anything that comes close to be honest. I can think of several humiliating performances on the field, but they were honest and we are talking about a sport here, where outcomes are meant to be uncertain. I can also think of tragedy and great sadness off the field. In terms of embarrassment though, no he's got me. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ned Nederlander Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 Oh dear - is there no end to the tediously redundant questions? It wasn't really a question it was Socratic Irony. Which is a totally different type of irony to that used by you in your reply. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Losetex Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 get that money to rangers u stingy b*****ds, even i in fekin bosnia know scottish banks are loaded 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Losetex Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 get that money to rangers u stingy b*****ds, even i in fekin bosnia know scottish banks are loaded 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huckleberry Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 As a so called institution who should be leading by example, Rangers FC, failed Ra peepel. As a pillar of Scottish Protestant virtue and values, again they let the nation down. To not having paid their just and lawful dues for a over a decade is nothing short of a national scandal and one we all hope will result in long jail terms for the guilty parties. The lies and sorry excuses from prominent members of the Established Institution is cringeworthly in the extreme. These people are nothing better than wilfully perjured individuals who are Scotlands true shame. The best thing that could happen to this sorry excuse of a football club is to completely fold and never shame the Scottish nation ever again. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MK Col Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 Don't feed the troll. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boereseun Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 I have to give some credit to Bendarroch and Forever Blue in particular for their contribution to this thread since it became safe for those who support Rangers to raise their heads above the parapet and kid on everything was the same as it had always been because a team of some description is playing at Ibrox again. But those who can look from afar know that the landscape will never be the same for many years to come. Rangers - followed by those charged with running football in this country - have provoked the single most embarassing episode in the history of Scottish football. A club that was so big it already dwarfed every single club in the country bar one spent £millions and £millions to prove themselves better than that other club. We will know soon enough whether they spent money improperly over a sustained period. The view of HMRC is that they certainly did. The paperwork seen by the BBC suggests that they did. And, even if they didn't, all paperwork was not submitted to the SFA so a breach occurred - the sort of breach which in an isolated case would see a team in bother (see recent Scottish Cup cases). Rangers fans will blame juan guy. They lapped up the "off the radar" stuff. They refused to believe what was staring them in the face even when it was staring them in the face (Vanguard Bears?). For years they demanded that someone else hurl money into their club so they could lord it over Celtic - never mind the rest. "WATP" - they expected nothing less than to be Simply the Best. Rangers FC left a trail of debt as long as your arm behind them. Still to be quantified but comfortably greater than anything Scottish football is ever likely to see again. To be fair to Rangers supporters, nobody saw it coming. The authorities were hopelessly ill-prepared for something seismic like this. When it happened they collectively shat themselves. If it hadn't been for the diddy supporters rocking up to their chairmen and getting them tellt, Rangers would be in the SPL. The desperation shown by those leading the game can offer no confidence that, if found guilty, Rangers will receive any meaningful punishment. This will give succour to the Bendarrochs, Forever Blues and all on Rangers Media that they are too big to receive a penalty that fits their misdemeanours. No wonder they think they are the people. It would be helpful if the football authorities made a clear statement on this current version of Rangers. Are they the same club, are they an 1872 continuation? Are the authorities content to separate club and company - bearing in mind the facts which underpin the club/company relationship? Without a clear, independent statement (and possibly even with one) there will be years and years of "We are Rangers" ... "No you're no'". It will be thrilling stuff - we've seen evidence of that since the start of the season. One way or another, this will finally be resolved. But the game will take years and years to recover. Not in terms of finance - that will resolve pretty quickly. The spirit of the game in Scotland has been wrecked. Those who have watched Rangers stick 2 fingers up at a level of debt which - even when expressed in ratio terms against the size of the club - would have seen others killed off are sick at the sychophantic arse-licking of the SPL and everyone else who "needs a strong Rangers". Rangers fans who are delighted still to have a club are being out-shouted by those who want revenge on their enemies - led of course by Jardine and others in positions of authority at Ibrox including Charles "nobody speaks up for Rangers" Green. That's possibly one of the most ironic elements of this entire episode - they think nobody has fought their corner when half the problems have arisen because people in charge were saying one thing and doing another (aye Stuart Regan ... especially you). When they get back to the SPL - whether 1 year or 3 - there will still be hell to pay. With a £4m tax bill already on the burner, a £9m PAYE shortfall added in, a trail of football debts and a bigger trail of non football related debt they could have been hoyed out. If it turns out that they have in fact serially cheated for 12 years on top of all the other stuff, what case can possibly be made for keeping them. I have no axe to grind with Rangers - I'd feel the same about any other club who went out of their way to defraud on a massive scale. Only one other club could possibly achieve this level right enough. By f**k that's taken some time to ramble through and no doubt the Bears will rip it whilst others cannae be arsed reading it (probably rightly so!). But arguing the rights and wrongs of whether they are the same club misses the point that, if they are, they are an absolute disgrace to the game. And if they are not, then they were a disgrace and those trying to reclaim the name are welcome to it - the name of Rangers will be tainted for generations to come. And the SPL titles that Celtic rack up in the meantime will also be "tainted" in their own way. 2 horse race, 1 horse race - makes no odds to those who are not horses at the race though. very true,The game up here will take years to recover from the disgusting behaviour of one club -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CityDave Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 Judging by the poorly thought out and badly written tirade he offered up I wouldn't have thought so. HTG said: "I have no axe to grind with Rangers." That diminutive, contradictory gem was delivered close to the end of a pejorative onslaught that Spiers himself would have been proud of. Albeit written more coherently. HTG also thinks The Rangers 'provoked the single most embarassing episode in the history of Scottish football.' That's conspicuously not true If you were to list a top 5 most embarrassing episodes or a one single embarrassing moment in the history of Scottish football in the SPL forum that would come out top with the majority of people.. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenockRover Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 I have to give some credit to Bendarroch and Forever Blue in particular for their contribution to this thread since it became safe for those who support Rangers to raise their heads above the parapet and kid on everything was the same as it had always been because a team of some description is playing at Ibrox again. But those who can look from afar know that the landscape will never be the same for many years to come. Rangers - followed by those charged with running football in this country - have provoked the single most embarassing episode in the history of Scottish football. A club that was so big it already dwarfed every single club in the country bar one spent £millions and £millions to prove themselves better than that other club. We will know soon enough whether they spent money improperly over a sustained period. The view of HMRC is that they certainly did. The paperwork seen by the BBC suggests that they did. And, even if they didn't, all paperwork was not submitted to the SFA so a breach occurred - the sort of breach which in an isolated case would see a team in bother (see recent Scottish Cup cases). Rangers fans will blame juan guy. They lapped up the "off the radar" stuff. They refused to believe what was staring them in the face even when it was staring them in the face (Vanguard Bears?). For years they demanded that someone else hurl money into their club so they could lord it over Celtic - never mind the rest. "WATP" - they expected nothing less than to be Simply the Best. Rangers FC left a trail of debt as long as your arm behind them. Still to be quantified but comfortably greater than anything Scottish football is ever likely to see again. To be fair to Rangers supporters, nobody saw it coming. The authorities were hopelessly ill-prepared for something seismic like this. When it happened they collectively shat themselves. If it hadn't been for the diddy supporters rocking up to their chairmen and getting them tellt, Rangers would be in the SPL. The desperation shown by those leading the game can offer no confidence that, if found guilty, Rangers will receive any meaningful punishment. This will give succour to the Bendarrochs, Forever Blues and all on Rangers Media that they are too big to receive a penalty that fits their misdemeanours. No wonder they think they are the people. It would be helpful if the football authorities made a clear statement on this current version of Rangers. Are they the same club, are they an 1872 continuation? Are the authorities content to separate club and company - bearing in mind the facts which underpin the club/company relationship? Without a clear, independent statement (and possibly even with one) there will be years and years of "We are Rangers" ... "No you're no'". It will be thrilling stuff - we've seen evidence of that since the start of the season. One way or another, this will finally be resolved. But the game will take years and years to recover. Not in terms of finance - that will resolve pretty quickly. The spirit of the game in Scotland has been wrecked. Those who have watched Rangers stick 2 fingers up at a level of debt which - even when expressed in ratio terms against the size of the club - would have seen others killed off are sick at the sychophantic arse-licking of the SPL and everyone else who "needs a strong Rangers". Rangers fans who are delighted still to have a club are being out-shouted by those who want revenge on their enemies - led of course by Jardine and others in positions of authority at Ibrox including Charles "nobody speaks up for Rangers" Green. That's possibly one of the most ironic elements of this entire episode - they think nobody has fought their corner when half the problems have arisen because people in charge were saying one thing and doing another (aye Stuart Regan ... especially you). When they get back to the SPL - whether 1 year or 3 - there will still be hell to pay. With a £4m tax bill already on the burner, a £9m PAYE shortfall added in, a trail of football debts and a bigger trail of non football related debt they could have been hoyed out. If it turns out that they have in fact serially cheated for 12 years on top of all the other stuff, what case can possibly be made for keeping them. I have no axe to grind with Rangers - I'd feel the same about any other club who went out of their way to defraud on a massive scale. Only one other club could possibly achieve this level right enough. By f**k that's taken some time to ramble through and no doubt the Bears will rip it whilst others cannae be arsed reading it (probably rightly so!). But arguing the rights and wrongs of whether they are the same club misses the point that, if they are, they are an absolute disgrace to the game. And if they are not, then they were a disgrace and those trying to reclaim the name are welcome to it - the name of Rangers will be tainted for generations to come. And the SPL titles that Celtic rack up in the meantime will also be "tainted" in their own way. 2 horse race, 1 horse race - makes no odds to those who are not horses at the race though. ^^^ This ...... But, of course, 'they are Rangers, they don't care' and there in lies the problem. We all assumed it was just a slogan..... turns out it's their ethos for life. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stonedsailor Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 If you were to list a top 5 most embarrassing episodes or a one single embarrassing moment in the history of Scottish football in the SPL forum that would come out top with the majority of people.. The way in which Caledonian FC were pushed into merging with Inverness Thistle in order to gain a place in the Scottish Football League, then the Rangers/Sevco thing. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CityDave Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 I thought the rocket who wanted to rewrite the history on the war-dead was pretty out there - but, your mince is close to being every bit as stupid and batshit crazy. Tea lady at Ibrox to lose job as sectarian exploitation is brought to it's knees by a St Mirren fan on a fitba forum. Your former club's inability (or rather won't pay as opposed to can't pay) to pay both debts and taxes had contributed to the recession/ banking crisis which would have had knock on effects on employment in this country and still continues to do so. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HTG Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 I really don't think so. Do you? Really? Absolutely. You clearly have a different episode in mind so why not elaborate and let people make their own judgement. Judging by the poorly thought out and badly written tirade he offered up I wouldn't have thought so. HTG said: "I have no axe to grind with Rangers." That diminutive, contradictory gem was delivered close to the end of a pejorative onslaught that Spiers himself would have been proud of. Albeit written more coherently. HTG also thinks The Rangers 'provoked the single most embarassing episode in the history of Scottish football.' That's conspicuously not true You are taking small pieces of text in isolation and dropping the context in which they were written. It's a common enough approach when you've not got a sensible argument to make but people can see it for what it was - Rangers, Portsmouth, Leeds Utd - they are all the same to me. They spend far more than they are capable of spending largely to feed the egos of their supporters. Last season we sold around 36,000 and (so far) we are close to 34,000 for this season. I fear season ticket sales might only be sixteen or seventeen times those of St integrity. It's difficult to know with any degree of certainty prior to sales closing. I have no idea on Falkirk numbers - 500 - 700? 853? 921? I'll get back to you when the final figures are released. I understand your interest in our greatest if clubs - much appreciated! This is the source of much of your argument - look how great our supporters are - we've bought thousands of season tickets for a diddy league. Look how big our club is and look how insignificant everyone else is. It might make you feel better but it doesn't make any difference to the rest. Maybe if you'd paid your way in the first place you wouldn't need season tickets for the seaside leagues. Take a guess. That's a common enough occurrence on P&P when facts aren't convenient. Do tell. Oh dear - is there no end to the tediously redundant questions? That's a belter of a tediously redundant question. As for the original question, what was the answer? Bendarroch, you're trying hard but you have a poor hand to play. You can skim over the actions of your club (if it is a continuation of the 1872 version) and give us all the nonsense about 34000 season tickets and the diddies being ... well ... diddies. But you can't have it all your own way. Rangers were structured to be better than Celtic at any cost. The cost was so high that your club has twice been sold for a pound. You had to leave at least £50m in unpaid debt - possibly a lot more. Charles Green has got you all dancing to his tune even though he did the same thing that the American fellow was hounded for. How has he done it? Soundbites. Appeal to the Rangers fans sense of injustice and fly at anyone who has a different line. You're doing the same on here but it doesn't work. Rangers as a football club is a complete basket case. For most people who understand the club/company relationship the old Rangers is dead and gone. Green knows it and said it. You coming on here as part of a triumphant return of The Rangers doesn't mean anyone else outside The Rangers family is going to separate the "noble" gesture of the fans to buy season tickets for SFL3 from the behaviour that got them there. Most of us support smaller clubs who strive to get by and pay what they can afford. Your club outspent the rest of Scottish football (with the exception of Celtic) by a country mile. You are already doing so again. Green had the nerve to declare Rangers "debt free". What a model for us all to follow. I'm not that interested in whether you thing the SPL is a joke, St Mirren can't shift season tickets or any of the rest of that stuff you are coming away with to deflect from the actions of your own club. The SPL has been a joke for years and St Mirren have always struggled to shift many more season tickets so these things are the same as they were before. What's different about Scottish football is Rangers going tits up and costing other people millions in the process. Stroll on. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CityDave Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 The way in which Caledonian FC were pushed into merging with Inverness Thistle in order to gain a place in the Scottish Football League, then the Rangers/Sevco thing. I'm sure it would get one or two mentions. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Kincardine Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 What's different about Scottish football is Rangers going tits up and costing other people millions in the process. Stroll on. Your post had a deal of sense in it and well-worthy of a load of green dots. I hope lots of Bears read it and take note. There is, though, something I take a bit of an issue with. Selling 30-thousand-odd season tickets is, to quote "1066 and All That", A GOOD THING. Now we Gers fans should not use that to batter wee diddies over the head with. Some have and I deprecate it. Equally, though, wee diddies shouldn't regard our season ticket sales as something to laugh at. Most of us have a healthy dose of scepticism towards Charles Green. The reason for people buying their briefs is not down to a few sound bites. It's pretty simple: they want to go and watch their team. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HTG Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 Your post had a deal of sense in it and well-worthy of a load of green dots. I hope lots of Bears read it and take note. There is, though, something I take a bit of an issue with. Selling 30-thousand-odd season tickets is, to quote "1066 and All That", A GOOD THING. Now we Gers fans should not use that to batter wee diddies over the head with. Some have and I deprecate it. Equally, though, wee diddies shouldn't regard our season ticket sales as something to laugh at. Most of us have a healthy dose of scepticism towards Charles Green. The reason for people buying their briefs is not down to a few sound bites. It's pretty simple: they want to go and watch their team. Kincardine, in itself selling 30k+ season tickets is indeed impressive. But the way that number has been used by some of your supporters to belittle other clubs isn't. We might find out soon enough but I suspect that if Hearts have to start again in SFL3 because Romanov pulls the plug or runs out of cash, they will sell season tickets in very good numbers - perhaps at a lower rate because they are unlikely to have their stadium in such an event. But there would be an impressive response just the same. In that sense Rangers are not unique. The purchase of these season tickets at Rangers is in part a gesture of relief that the club is still around at all and partly a decision by any number of individuals to make sure they do their bit to avoid any repetition of what they have just been through. And it is a means of supporting the club which is focused in a way that could not be achieved when different people were pulling the club to bits last season and all they had was Sandy Jardine doing a "Delia". God help Charles Green if this doesn't work out - he'll be lynched. And I'm not sure how much control he has yet of events which are still in the pipeline. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeeTeeJag Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 The Rangers fans have had it tough over the past few months because of what has happened, but then again many other fans have had it just as tough over the past 20 years due to what has happened at Ibrox. But The Rangers fans really don't know whether they are coming or going right now. A lot of people have been playing a game and pulling the strings of the fans this way and that. Their heads are in a collective spin, but as long as a team in blue goes on the park, they are happy with that. However, the game is still being played, and the fans are the unwitting players in all of this. It's becoming like The Truman Show as their emotions and money are being pulled and pushed this way and that. It's actually something that governments do to keep it's people in line. One minute there is a terrorist threat, then it's reduced, but then it's an outbreak of a virus that could spread and kill us all, then it's not as bad as first thought................ The people are so confused that they don't know what to think and just go along with whatever they are told to do. So it is with the Ibrox faithful. Craig Whyte says to trust him and McCoist says he is "100% happy" with Whyte's backing. Now Ally says he never trusted him. Whyte says he has investors that will put a lot of money into the club and bring in the best players they can. No one at first questions this. Whyte says the fans are the best in the world and together they will make the club great. Fans pleased with this. Documentary comes out that says everything is not as rosy at Ibrox with regards to Craig Whyte as people are being led to believe. Fans and club are livid at such speculation, but at least it gets them asking where the money is and who these investors are. Fans find out Craig Whyte got a loan to buy Rangers and using their season ticket money to pay off the loan. Fans outraged. But hang on a second.......... Isn't all of this sounding a little familiar? Ally only a short while ago was telling fans not to renew season tickets until Charles Green came up with answers to the questions being put to him, but now, despite none of these questions being answered, Ally now says he trusts Green because he has earned that trust. How exactly did he do that? Green says he has investors that will put a lot of money into the club and bring in the best players they can. Yet has never shown proof of these investors or their money. Ofcourse, we get a lot of bluster from the man about guys such as Mike Ashley, and foreign businessmen, but nothing ever concrete. Just enough to keep the fans on the edge of their seats waiting for a securicor van full of cash to park outside Ibrox. Green says the fans are the best in the world and together they will make the club great. Fans pleased with this. Green seen giving cups of tea to fans and shaking hands with people in the disabled section. Does this make him trustworthy? Hardly. But it does mean if he is doing that then he doesn't have to answer questions on how the club is being run. He is like the guy that walks into a bar, finds a girl looking a bit down because her boyfriend dumped her, tells her she is the most beautiful girl he's ever laid eyes on, gets her all giggly, takes her home and sleeps with her. Then she wonders why he never calls or sees her again. He's telling the fans what they want to hear, and although they may not believe any of it, it makes them feel a bit better about themselves for a while. Fans find out Charles Green got a loan to buy Rangers and using their season ticket money to pay off the loan. Fans not bothered as long as they have players on the park. £10 million on season ticket sales and about half of that has gone to pay off Green's loan to buy the club. So he's bought the club for nothing effectively and the fans have paid for it. The rest will be used for the upkeep of the club and paying players. In the future he hopes to have a share issue where the fans can buy shares in the club (that they already just paid for) again. His major problem now is where does he get the money to keep the club going? Investors obviously, but despite his speeches there aren't many people willing to buy into a club that still has so much hanging over it. Millionaires and billionaires don't just give their money away without wanting a good return on it. What Green is doing is exactly what Whyte did. Whilst Whyte bet everything on CL money saving the club, Green is betting everything on the fans bailing him out with their readies and a good couple of cup runs, as well as the EBT thing not being as bad as it's feared and him hoping that he doesn't have to pay the football debts around the world. But he's already started looking at an exit strategy. Not of the "someone with more money than sense to buy him out" kind though. He is already poking the hornet's nest at the SFA and SPL with his pandering to the Ibrox masses and his hard done by stories to the media. He knows they are going to kick him from pillar to post for these, and as soon as it becomes obvious to him that he can't keep the club afloat (if it comes to that) then he will walk away claiming he was driven out of Scottish football and that he did his best for a club he came to love (despite the fans hatred of him only months before), and that the SFA and SPL have killed the club, not him. I'm sure many fans, as Kincardine said, are cautious of Green and giving him a little leeway to see if he can come good. The truth is they don't really have any choice because no one else wanted to touch the club despite rumblings from Smith, Brown and TBK. If he can turn the club around, then fair play to him and the fans. But it is now up to the fans to think for themselves and not be persuaded by the words of a man they know very little about, apart from he is hated at Sheffield, or a manager (legend or otherwise) who knows he is only hanging onto his job for as long as Green deems him a useful buffer with the fans. The game against Falkirk tonight may well have Green and McCoist more worried than they would ever let on. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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