aofjays Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 again i am not claiming the billy boys has never been sung at parkhead , i was questioning it happening in time frame you stated earlier in the posts at hand. you clealry stated a few months beforehand so you must have had some rough date floating around your head ? Ah, fair enough. CIS cup final was a few months after the article I linked. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteRoseKillie Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 With all the arguing over what is and isn't sectarian... The McPherson Report , commissioned in the wake of Stephen Lawrence's killing, defined a racist incident as one which constituted words, behaviour or actions perceived by the victim, or a third party, to be racist. Applying the same logic to the Arse Cheeks' "traditional" behaviour, the question really is, why continue to behave in this manner when you clearly know your behaviour is unacceptable to the majority of society? Deflection from both sides has been the order for the last couple of days. I see it as a simple fact that, without these two convenient beacons, the sectarian issue in Scotland would have died out in any significant numbers decades ago. How often do you hear the "I'm just a football fan" shite from supporters born miles away from Glasgow? Glory Hunters? Why don't they (later generations at least) follow Man United or Barcelona, then? At least they're competing for the big prizes, and they're as relevant to "just a football fan" from Inverness or Gretna - or Belfast, or wherever else they come from to get on the ferries. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taza Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 Can you cite any of these reports that state the vast majority of Rangers fans are voting NO? Also can you give a percentage of this vast majority? There's a thread in the Indy forum where posters have been listing polls conducted on the subject, from all clubs' various supporters sites/forums. Rangers' ranged 80-95%. The P&B bears are almost to a man voting no. Tedi has declared undecided, I think Bennett has said he's a yes and as far as I'm aware only 2x others on here have declared themselves as yes voters. I think you'l find it to be a widely held view that most of your club's support are in the no camp but strangely enough very few of them want to discuss their reasons. As I remember, you are also a confirmed no voter. Perhaps we should start an Indy poll thread in this section and see how it turns out. Fancy hazarding a guess at the outcome? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bennett Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 (edited) Can anyone explain what unites such a large economically and socially diverse group (Rangers support) in feeling fear and under threat from their home Nation's independence? As a Rangers fan and SNP member, perhaps you could explain why i would feel under threat? Just noticed your above post Apache, just ignore this. Edited July 29, 2014 by bennett 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forever_blue Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 There's a thread in the Indy forum where posters have been listing polls conducted on the subject, from all clubs' various supporters sites/forums. Rangers' ranged 80-95%. The P&B bears are almost to a man voting no. Tedi has declared undecided, I think Bennett has said he's a yes and as far as I'm aware only 2x others on here have declared themselves as yes voters. I think you'l find it to be a widely held view that most of your club's support are in the no camp but strangely enough very few of them want to discuss their reasons. As I remember, you are also a confirmed no voter. Perhaps we should start an Indy poll thread in this section and see how it turns out. Fancy hazarding a guess at the outcome? the result of any poll here would be irrelevant as very few rangers fans actually post on this section, also we prefer to discuss 16-20th century irish ploitics on this part of the form, none of this modern day scottish stuff please nah in actual fact tbf the topic of independnec is hardly ever discussed on this part of the forum 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stonedsailor Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 (edited) stoney= telt http://www.sneps.net/OO/images/1-The Orange Order in Scotland since 1860.pdf Page 4 when the membership of the OO peaked, page 29 for Pope visit, 1982. Seriously if you don't think the membership increased because of this visit then you're being naive. http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/events/hstrike/summary.htm Again if you don't accept that support for Irish Republicanism increased in Scotland due to the hunger strikes then you're being naive. The hunger strikes ensured that Irish Republican movements had their active and tacit support increased. There are many articles to support that. Thanks for that, I'll have a read later. What were we talking about and where were we going with this? EDIT- It's okay I read back. The clubs may not have been the cause of sectarianism but they have without doubt used the fear and tension created by sectarianism across the water to profit from their fan groups. The clubs sold themselves as being on one side of the divide or the other thereby inextricably linking the support of a club to one side or other in the conflict. They used fear to sell their products. They traded on the insecurities of normal people and used that to force them into showing loyalty to something more than a football club. Ingenious marketing but abhorrent practice in real life. The "coincidence" in timeline showing Irish political interest in this country and this country's worst football violence shows how pathetic so-called sporting organisations and those who follow them are. The OF clubs, all three of them, have chosen to be ambassadors for one side or other in order to maximise profit. Whether they have done this through direct means or used more subliminal methods the clubs are culpable for helping to maintain even stoke the passions aroused in normal people in order to make a profit. Edited July 29, 2014 by stonedsailor 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Tennis Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 This still does not make it ok for any individual to act in such a way, regardless of the team they support. He's not suggesting for a moment that it does. He's quite explicit in not doing so. He's saying that the existence of the OF clubs has enabled such regrettable instances to occur. Why do people keep wishing to argue with others about things they've not said? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stonedsailor Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 As a Rangers fan and SNP member, perhaps you could explain why i would feel under threat? Just noticed your above post Apache, just ignore this. An SNP member? Those are a bunch of two faced back-stabbing cnuts. You'll fit right in. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calum_gers Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 He's not suggesting for a moment that it does. He's quite explicit in not doing so. He's saying that the existence of the OF clubs has enabled such regrettable instances to occur. Why do people keep wishing to argue with others about things they've not said? This entire thread has become an exercise in whatabouttery and refusal to accept basic facts. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stonedsailor Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 This still does not make it ok for any individual to act in such a way, regardless of the team they support. When part of a crowd an individual loses his/her identity so in essence choosing to be a part of a crowd is choosing to enter into the group and all of it's philosophies. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calum_gers Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 When part of a crowd an individual loses his/her identity so in essence choosing to be a part of a crowd is choosing to enter into the group and all of it's philosophies. Utter nonsense. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youngsy Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 There's a thread in the Indy forum where posters have been listing polls conducted on the subject, from all clubs' various supporters sites/forums. Rangers' ranged 80-95%. The P&B bears are almost to a man voting no. Tedi has declared undecided, I think Bennett has said he's a yes and as far as I'm aware only 2x others on here have declared themselves as yes voters. I think you'l find it to be a widely held view that most of your club's support are in the no camp but strangely enough very few of them want to discuss their reasons. As I remember, you are also a confirmed no voter. Perhaps we should start an Indy poll thread in this section and see how it turns out. Fancy hazarding a guess at the outcome? Hardly a vast majority of Rangers fans but fair enough you can only go on what is seen, i personally know of many Rangers fans who are voting YES, as for myself, i haven't got a vote being domiciled in England. However speaking for myself, whilst i support the Union my politics are that of Labour and if i still lived in Scotland i may well vote YES, it would depend on my summation of taking everything into account, which tbh i haven't done. A poll on this thread, a resounding YES i would think 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forever_blue Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 the funny thing is that since i posted my story , not one single person has condemned the actions of the hibs fans and instead put the blame solely at rangers and celtics door, again it is that notion coming through that us scots find it easier to blame rangers and celtic rather than acknowledge we actually have a religous divide in the country. Now if someone had posted a story similar to mine of someone being called a f****n b*****d by a rangers supporting ned in a car then various posters would be looking for me and fellow rangers fans to condemn the action. as I have said the comment did not bother me in the slightest at the time and i instead gave as good as i got but it is an interesting observation none the less -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florentine_Pogen Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 Methinks thou dost protesteth too much. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyWellFan Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 Where did Tedi go anyway? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forever_blue Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 Methinks thou dost protesteth too much. was it you ? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stonedsailor Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 (edited) the funny thing is that since i posted my story , not one single person has condemned the actions of the hibs fans and instead put the blame solely at rangers and celtics door, again it is that notion coming through that us scots find it easier to blame rangers and celtic rather than acknowledge we actually have a religous divide in the country. Now if someone had posted a story similar to mine of someone being called a f****n b*****d by a rangers supporting ned in a car then various posters would be looking for me and fellow rangers fans to condemn the action. as I have said the comment did not bother me in the slightest at the time and i instead gave as good as i got but it is an interesting observation none the less f**k up mun. Your story just mentioned these lads were from in Leith, we don't play the prejudging game and make assumptions about their loyalties. Were they Hibs supporters? Or is it possible there are Celtic fans in Leith? Is it possible some Leith neds/junkies saw your shirt and hit you with the biggest insult they could, knowing that weejie baster might not illicit such a response? Were the lads even from Leith? If you're going to lay bait out make sure it's fully prepared. Edited July 29, 2014 by stonedsailor 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stonedsailor Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 Calum, there is research, mounds of it, which proves otherwise. http://www.uni-kiel.de/psychologie/ispp/doc_upload/Reicher_crowd%20dynamics.pdf Utter nonsense. On a theoretical level, this divorce between crowds and social context is mirrored and underpinned by a desocialised conception of identity. That is, the self is conceptualised as a unique and sovereign construct which is the sole basis of controlled and rational action. Social context plays no part in determining the content of identity but merely serves to moderate its operation. Specifically, crowd contexts serve as the ‘off switch’ for identity. Thus Le Bon’s crowd psychology breaks the link both between society and the self and also between the self and behaviour. The former rupture means that no action, ncluding crowd action, can either shape or be shaped by society. The latter rupture means that crowd action can have no shape at all, either social or otherwise. If the self is sole basis of control, then loss of self in the crowd means loss of control and emergent psychopathology. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forever_blue Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 f**k up mun. Your story just mentioned these lads were from in Leith, we don't play the prejudging game and make assumptions about their loyalties. Were they Hibs supporters? Or is it possible there are Celtic fans in Leith? Is it possible some Leith neds/junkies saw your shirt and hit you with the biggest insult they could, knowing that weejie baster might not illicit such a response? Were the lads even from Leith? If you're going to lay bait out make sure it's fully prepared. again no condemnation of them branding out secterian insults instead just looking to question where they came from and even an accusation of it being a celtic fan thrown in aswell. I dont know maybe they were celtic fans , maybe they werent from leith but again you dont seem to be that bothered about them dishing out religous abuse to strangers yet when a rangers fan post something on twitter this place is full of people seeking condemnation from rangers fans ? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stonedsailor Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 (edited) again no condemnation of them branding out secterian insults instead just looking to question where they came from and even an accusation of it being a celtic fan thrown in aswell. I dont know maybe they were celtic fans , maybe they werent from leith but again you dont seem to be that bothered about them dishing out religous abuse to strangers yet when a rangers fan post something on twitter this place is full of people seeking condemnation from rangers fans ? Anyone using any sectarian insult is a dick. My point is that without knowing anything about their background you wanted the actions of these people to be used as a condemnation of Hibs football club, you don't even know if they were Hibs supporters. And you are trying to paint me in a dark light? Edited July 29, 2014 by stonedsailor 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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