YassinMoutaouakil Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 The discussion isn't over why Scotland hasn't experienced sectarian conflict like Northern Ireland it's about the notion that if Rangers and Celtic didn't exist as beacons to these identities and cultures, it's very likey sectarianism would have ceased to exist as well.DEFLECT! Jason Scotland, Motherwell fans =literally Hitler DEFLECT! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyWellFan Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 saying that tensions between protestant and catholics in glasgow would not have existed without rangers or celtic is like saying glasgows gang problem might have been eradicated had they not built the likes of easterhouse, drumchapel etc. the problem was not to do with football teams it was to do with religoun , jobs, housing and discrimination. It would never have gotten to belfast level of troubles but tensions would have still be there regardless. Nobody is saying secatrian tensions wouldn't have existed at all, I am saying we wouldn't have the problem we do now if Rangers and Celtic didn't exist. Society would have moved on just as it has with issues like racism and homophobia. Problems will never be completely eradicated but we would not have the issue we do now with it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Venti Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 saying that tensions between protestant and catholics in glasgow would not have existed without rangers or celtic is like saying glasgows gang problem might have been eradicated had they not built the likes of easterhouse, drumchapel etc. the problem was not to do with football teams it was to do with religoun , jobs, housing and discrimination. It would never have gotten to belfast level of troubles but tensions would have still be there regardless. I think the sinister thing about bigotry here is the 'clandestine' nature. In Northern Ireland it's more obvious. Witness quite a lot of Rangers/Celtic fans having a laugh together only to hear them talk the back off each other. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forever_blue Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 anyway fascinating debate chaps we really must do it again sometime 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyWellFan Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 anyway fascinating debate chaps we really must do it again sometime 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forever_blue Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 no white flag from me . you could not possibly know what type of situation glasgow owuld be in without rangers or celtic as it is just an opinion. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Venti Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 i have seen people i knew change their views and opinions over the years from when they began supporting either celtic or rangers, going from reasonably balanced over the other one, only bothered about the football to borderline bigotry, mild paranoia and obsessive behaviour to what the other is up to. supporting a football team can change a person almost like the person grows into this persona. every club has its identity, every club's collective supporters have theirs. every supporter is different, collectively they have a something in common and will behave in a group mind. this is hugely relevant when regarding how both club and supporters relate to each other. it is this reason why football clubs must take responsibility for the actions of the supporters representing that club, both within the football ground and outside. football clubs play a large part in cultural influence and therefore should be pro active towards educating people who they represent and supporters that represent them rather than taking a passive route due to concern for example over financial loss if supporters disagree and stop going to games. football clubs have a moral obligation. My dear Mr Crayola. You have a bloody cheek talking about "bigotry, paranoia & obsession" when you post in red/blue font to troll people. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave.j Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 no white flag from me . you could not possibly know what type of situation glasgow owuld be in without rangers or celtic as it is just an opinion. I'm going to hazard a guess at a much better situation. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youngsy Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 The discussion isn't over why Scotland hasn't experienced sectarian conflict like Northern Ireland it's about the notion that if Rangers and Celtic didn't exist as beacons to these identities and cultures, it's very likey sectarianism would have ceased to exist as well. Blame Andrew Kerins for that. -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Tennis Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 (edited) i have seen people i knew change their views and opinions over the years from when they began supporting either celtic or rangers, going from reasonably balanced over the other one, only bothered about the football to borderline bigotry, mild paranoia and obsessive behaviour to what the other is up to. supporting a football team can change a person almost like the person grows into this persona. every club has its identity, every club's collective supporters have theirs. every supporter is different, collectively they have a something in common and will behave in a group mind. this is hugely relevant when regarding how both club and supporters relate to each other. it is this reason why football clubs must take responsibility for the actions of the supporters representing that club, both within the football ground and outside. football clubs play a large part in cultural influence and therefore should be pro active towards educating people who they represent and supporters that represent them rather than taking a passive route due to concern for example over financial loss if supporters disagree and stop going to games. football clubs have a moral obligation. Another very good post Snaffers. Kelp crayoning. Edited July 28, 2014 by Monkey Tennis 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Tennis Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 (edited) Nobody is saying secatrian tensions wouldn't have existed at all, I am saying we wouldn't have the problem we do now if Rangers and Celtic didn't exist. Society would have moved on just as it has with issues like racism and homophobia. Problems will never be completely eradicated but we would not have the issue we do now with it. Precisely this. Foreverblue wishes to tackle the suggestion that Rangers and Celtic caused and created sectarianism from scratch. It's a pity because it's not actually a suggestion that any one person on here has made. At all. Several of us would contend however that sectarianism has had a prolonged and enhanced life in this country due to its deliberate and lucrative exploitation by two football clubs. Edited July 28, 2014 by Monkey Tennis 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youngsy Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 I'm going to hazard a guess at a much better situation. Seriously i would doubt that if there was no Rangers and Celtic the situation would be greatly improved. The focus would then be on another outlet and a huge part of this has been the situation in Northern Ireland from the 1910s. You will always have the OO and Republican movements, all relating to Northern Ireland. As long as Scotland has organisations relating to Ireland then the bigotry will always be there. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Tennis Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 Seriously i would doubt that if there was no Rangers and Celtic the situation would be greatly improved. The focus would then be on another outlet and a huge part of this has been the situation in Northern Ireland from the 1910s. You will always have the OO and Republican movements, all relating to Northern Ireland. As long as Scotland has organisations relating to Ireland then the bigotry will always be there. I agree with much of this, but do you honestly think that the size, coverage and success of two clubs associated closely with the nonsense has not helped sustain it? I think that's absurd. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyWellFan Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 Seriously i would doubt that if there was no Rangers and Celtic the situation would be greatly improved. The focus would then be on another outlet and a huge part of this has been the situation in Northern Ireland from the 1910s. You will always have the OO and Republican movements, all relating to Northern Ireland. As long as Scotland has organisations relating to Ireland then the bigotry will always be there. Really? I mean you can be marked as one or the other just for wearing a football top. Celtic and Rangers have over many years have become ways of defining who you are and who you hate. Both clubs for many years exploited and encouraged this tribal divide and it would not exist anywhere near to the same extent if they didn't exist either. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youngsy Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 I agree with much of this, but do you honestly think that the size, coverage and success of two clubs associated closely with the nonsense has not helped sustain it? I think that's absurd. Yes it has helped to sustain it as both clubs have been a focal point for both religions going back to the beginning of the last century but the point i'm making is if both clubs did not exist there would have been another focus for both communities to indulge in. Imo as long as there has been the N.I. situation that has had more impact on bigotry and sectarianism in the WoS than anything else. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Tennis Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 Yes it has helped to sustain it as both clubs have been a focal point for both religions going back to the beginning of the last century but the point i'm making is if both clubs did not exist there would have been another focus for both communities to indulge in. Imo as long as there has been the N.I. situation that has had more impact on bigotry and sectarianism in the WoS than anything else. What else could possibly have such a high profile and lend such 'legitimacy' to sectarianism? I don't believe for a moment that anything else could replace it as a focus (with its associations with colour, song, iconography and triumphalism). It's football's misfortune that it's been the perfect vehicle via which these bawbags can express themselves. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forever_blue Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 Yes it has helped to sustain it as both clubs have been a focal point for both religions going back to the beginning of the last century but the point i'm making is if both clubs did not exist there would have been another focus for both communities to indulge in. Imo as long as there has been the N.I. situation that has had more impact on bigotry and sectarianism in the WoS than anything else. got to agree here without rangers you are looking at the orange order probably been much bigger than what they were or are as that would have been one the main things the protestant community would have clung onto , infact if you look at the dates on most scottish lodegs they were formed in the late 19th century when catholocism was on the rise. the catholics would have probably therefor had a lodge or movement of of their own and the troubles in ireland would have still played a major part in tensions in Glasgow. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youngsy Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 What else could possibly have such a high profile and lend such 'legitimacy' to sectarianism? I don't believe for a moment that anything else could replace it as a focus (with its associations with colour, song, iconography and triumphalism). It's football's misfortune that it's been the perfect vehicle via which these bawbags can express themselves. The songs and everything else attached to them are and were driven by both supports, not the clubs as such. Without a doubt if both clubs never existed then the radicals who have attached themselves to both clubs for many, many years would have looked elsewhere and i've no doubt that there would have been a very significant upsurge in the membership of such organisations. Certainly there have been many individuals involved with both clubs over the time since the clubs have been founded who have embraced and encouraged both supports in the politics of both Protestant and Catholic beliefs but imo that would still have been prevalent in Scottish society with or without the clubs. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Tennis Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 (edited) Aw Jesus. Are you both now seriously claiming that lodge membership etc would be greater, were it not for the existence of Rangers? Don't be ridiculous. Members of such bodies would be viewed far more widely as the sad inadequates they are, were it not for the existence of a football club which lends such bonkerdom a perceived legitimacy. Edited July 28, 2014 by Monkey Tennis 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forever_blue Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 Aw Jesus. Are you both now seriously claiming that lodge membership etc would be greater, were it not for the existence of Rangers? Don't be ridiculous. Members of such bodies would be viewed far more widely as the sad inadequates they are, were it not for the existence of a football club which lends such bonkerdom a perceived legitimacy. yes i believe it would have been as i have said look at the dates of when most orange lodges and districts began in central Scotland and they almost all coincide with the growth of irish immigration and the rise of catholocism which was a result of this. without rangers to use as a vehicle by the protestant community the lodge would have probably been far greater than what it it already was in the early 20th century. why do you find this idea so rediculous ? the same would have probably happened on the other side aswell. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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