Swampy Posted May 3, 2012 Share Posted May 3, 2012 Whyte is, in effect, being bypassed. The assets belong to the business, which the administrators are control of. So, Whyte has no say in who buys them, or for how much. He still owns "all" the shares in, what will become, the oldco. But that will be a company, still in administration, with no assets and no income. Even if the oldco is liquidated, the shares that it owns in the newco pass to the creditors, not Whyte .... we think! But isn't Whyte a creditor? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roverthemoon Posted May 3, 2012 Share Posted May 3, 2012 I wonder if Miller is going to try and claim that the newco isnt really a newco? Has he not already done this by talking about 'incubator's' and 'custodians' of the Oldco? Presumably he'll keep this tenious link to the old Rangers to get what he needs from the SFA/SPL on the league admittance side then once he has he'll attempt to shed it along with the debt and financial problems. The bottom line remains it is the SFA/SPL who have all the cards and can tell this Newco Incubation monstrosity to get to f**k. But the line every snivelling journalist and pundit has been peddling is that Scottish football needs Rangers therefore they are going to bend over backwards to let it in. Cold, hard cash trumps integrity I'm afraid when it comes to the Old Firm. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hey! Ho! Jambo! Posted May 3, 2012 Share Posted May 3, 2012 Paul Clark reckons a deal has been done for Rangers/Govan Wanderer's to remain in the SPL according to BBC's McGlaughlin. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wunfellaff Posted May 3, 2012 Share Posted May 3, 2012 Didn't know BM was a Chattanoogan. That changes everything. Link Aye, if chic asks him to repeat simethong at a press conference he could say... "pardon me boy"...... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forest_Fifer Posted May 3, 2012 Share Posted May 3, 2012 So if this works - what's to stop Hearts (or anyone else for that matter) using the same method to walk away from any debts? Who'se going to lend any Scottish football club money (or give them credit) if it's apparently this easy to dodge the debts? Well, other than the fact that if it was any other club the SPL would tell them to jog on when they asked for the share to be transferred. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeilJag Posted May 3, 2012 Share Posted May 3, 2012 Are there any legal requirements/guidelines surrounding the selling of assets by a company in administration? It strikes me that any sale should be to generate cash which could go to pay creditors, and any sale of assets at less than optimal value would be not be in the best interests of the creditors (whom the admins are supposed to be concerned with). Basically what I'm saying is can H&D sell anything they like to whomever they like at any price without any questioning of it? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTaxMan Posted May 3, 2012 Share Posted May 3, 2012 Uncle Bill speaks What he says is that IF he becomes the custodian of the club, and it's a big IF, it will be run within it's means, it won't spend money it isn't generating. Haudit & Daudit have already stated that it needs to trim £1million per month from it's expenses to achieve this, look out for big scale redundancies if he doesn't disappear over the horizon as soon as he sees the real accounts. Only way to save that amount is to get rid of high earners, who are about four weeks away from going back to their high earnings - or heading out the door. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
)typically Posted May 3, 2012 Share Posted May 3, 2012 So just to clarify, the oldco could owe up to £135m or so and the combined assets of the oldco don't match up to that value, yet it's entirely legal to transfer everything except that debt over to newco leaving the oldco a shell with no assets. It's an incredible bit of slight of hand you have to say and one I would have thought HRMC would do all it can to stop. This is leaving aside the football side of things regarding "re"-admittance to the league. I assume Bill Miller's £11m goes into oldco in return for these assets. The administrators have deemed this in the best interests of the creditors. If they disagree it is up to them to challenge it through the courts. Watch this space. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roverthemoon Posted May 3, 2012 Share Posted May 3, 2012 So if this works - what's to stop Hearts (or anyone else for that matter) using the same method to walk away from any debts? Who'se going to lend any Scottish football club money (or give them credit) if it's apparently this easy to dodge the debts? Well, other than the fact that if it was any other club the SPL would tell them to jog on when they asked for the share to be transferred. If I was another SPL club with considerable debts I'd be starting to plan for this route right away. Do it right on the back of them bending over for Rangers so they couldn't turn around and say things are different now. If you let Rangers away with it then you have to let Hearts/Kille/whoever away with it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forest_Fifer Posted May 3, 2012 Share Posted May 3, 2012 Of course he is. They will claim the newco will possess the spirit of RFC Remake of The Sixth Sense coming up starring Bill Miller "I can see dead people football clubs" 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted May 3, 2012 Share Posted May 3, 2012 (edited) Are there any legal requirements/guidelines surrounding the selling of assets by a company in administration? It strikes me that any sale should be to generate cash which could go to pay creditors, and any sale of assets at less than optimal value would be not be in the best interests of the creditors (whom the admins are supposed to be concerned with). Basically what I'm saying is can H&D sell anything they like to whomever they like at any price without any questioning of it? I would think the creditors could take them to court for failing to act in their best interests, and have alternative administrators put in place. P.S. It's happened before in England: My link Edited May 3, 2012 by welshbairn 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baxter Parp Posted May 3, 2012 Share Posted May 3, 2012 If I was another SPL club with considerable debts I'd be starting to plan for this route right away. Do it right on the back of them bending over for Rangers so they couldn't turn around and say things are different now. If you let Rangers away with it then you have to let Hearts/Kille/whoever away with it. If Rangers get away with it expect rule changes to make sure nobody else can, pronto. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homer Thompson Posted May 3, 2012 Share Posted May 3, 2012 So who is trying to secure a CVA then if not Miller - the administrators on behalf of the old co and what cash is used to finance said CVA - the £11m or whatever Miller is going to pay ??? If Miller is then nothing to do with the Old Co how does he then plan to merge the newco and the old co at the end of his grand plan ? I dont know who secures the CVA to be honest, but yes, the £11m Miller pays is all they'll have to do it with. I didnt mean to imply that Miller has nothing to do with the oldco, just that the newco isnt liable for the oldco debts. So just to clarify, the oldco could owe up to £135m or so and the combined assets of the oldco don't match up to that value, yet it's entirely legal to transfer everything except that debt over to newco leaving the oldco a shell with no assets. It's an incredible bit of slight of hand you have to say and one I would have thought HRMC would do all it can to stop. This is leaving aside the football side of things regarding "re"-admittance to the league. It would seem so. Might be interesting to see what HMRC and Ticketus do next But isn't Whyte a creditor? Good point. Apparently so, but no-one seems to know how much for or whether he has a floating charge over the debt - making him a preferred creditor. I think I see where you're going with this though. Miller setups newco ... oldco cant agree CVA ... oldco liquidates ... ownership of newco transfers to creditors of oldco... new owner of newco Rangers is ... ... Craig Whyte! Has he not already done this by talking about 'incubator's' and 'custodians' of the Oldco? Presumably he'll keep this tenious link to the old Rangers to get what he needs from the SFA/SPL on the league admittance side then once he has he'll attempt to shed it along with the debt and financial problems. The bottom line remains it is the SFA/SPL who have all the cards and can tell this Newco Incubation monstrosity to get to f**k. But the line every snivelling journalist and pundit has been peddling is that Scottish football needs Rangers therefore they are going to bend over backwards to let it in. Cold, hard cash trumps integrity I'm afraid when it comes to the Old Firm. Yes, guess he has. I know we all think the SPL will bend over backwards for Rangers, but surely this would be a step too far, even for them?? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drooper Posted May 3, 2012 Share Posted May 3, 2012 If Rangers get away with it expect rule changes to make sure nobody else can, pronto. This. Call me cycnical, but this always been the intention. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supras Posted May 3, 2012 Share Posted May 3, 2012 It'll turn out that Bill Miller is dodgier than Whyte. Have the SFA done due diligence? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drooper Posted May 3, 2012 Share Posted May 3, 2012 (edited) It'll turn out that Bill Miller is dodgier than Whyte. Have the SFA done due diligence? It seems they are not obliged to. Edit: I suspect Whyte is an associate of Bill Miller. I genuinely believe that there is every chance that this is the case. Way back in this thread, I painted what might have been regarded as a convoluted conspiracy theory regarding how Whyte has been playing this, and what the end game might be. I suggested that he'd club together with another shady character and knit a buy-over that would serve the purpose of writing off any liability Whyte might have, while ensuring he retains (joint?) ownership of the assets. Until this thing pans out in a different manner, I will maintain that therein lies the endgame. Edited May 3, 2012 by Drooper 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hey! Ho! Jambo! Posted May 3, 2012 Share Posted May 3, 2012 I would think the creditors could take them to court for failing to act in their best interests, and have alternative administrators put in place. P.S. It's happened before in England: My link I'd be stunned if the ball wasn't rolling to block the asset's being transfered out of reach which HMRC can do. Any creditor looking for a return will be petitioning for this also. As a tax-payer, we should all agree. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenockRover Posted May 3, 2012 Share Posted May 3, 2012 Right not that we finally have preferred bidder day out of the way, can anyone give me approximate dates for when we are likely to see SPL roll over and take it up the arse day? That's EVERY DAY 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jussy Posted May 3, 2012 Share Posted May 3, 2012 Even if the oldco is liquidated, the shares that it owns in the newco pass to the creditors, not Whyte .... we think! I'm still (further to our conversation on this the other day) not entirely convinced this is the case. I don't think the creditors are entitled to anything from the newco, but my interpretation may be wrong. MLM did get back to me on the question of when the assets and CVA agreement take place. Apparently it's entirely legal and common for the CVA to be agreed after the hive down. I'd certainly be challenging this if I was a creditor. My link 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hayseed Posted May 3, 2012 Share Posted May 3, 2012 Are there any legal requirements/guidelines surrounding the selling of assets by a company in administration? It strikes me that any sale should be to generate cash which could go to pay creditors, and any sale of assets at less than optimal value would be not be in the best interests of the creditors (whom the admins are supposed to be concerned with). Basically what I'm saying is can H&D sell anything they like to whomever they like at any price without any questioning of it? Seems to be answered here. http://www.companyrescue.co.uk/company-rescue/guides/guide-to-transactions-under-value However, if the assets are unencumbered and are then sold below their proper value, or moved for no payment (consideration), then there is a possible breach of s238 Insolvency Act 1986 - Transaction at Undervalue. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.