Sons' sorrow

[athletic 1]

I was under the impression that a player's value wasn't some arbitrary sum but rather was based on his earnings.

Correct

[squeezeboxson]

2 hours ago, Howlin' Wilf said:

 

I was under the impression that a player's value wasn't some arbitrary sum but rather was based on his earnings.

 

 

51 minutes ago, athletic 1 said:

Correct

So basically we have a worthless player and Annan don't? I can deal with that.

Edited July 18, 2016 by squeezeboxson

[Skyline Drifter]

3 hours ago, Howlin' Wilf said:

 

I was under the impression that a player's value wasn't some arbitrary sum but rather was based on his earnings.

 

Not as such. Compensation is based on the actual costs of his development. His earnings form a part of the consideration but not the major part.

[Howlin' Wilf]

Not as such. Compensation is based on the actual costs of his development. His earnings form a part of the consideration but not the major part.

I understand though, that his development took place at Carlisle. Does anyone know if Annan had to pay Carlisle?

[Sweet Pete]

14 minutes ago, Howlin' Wilf said:

I understand though, that his development took place at Carlisle. Does anyone know if Annan had to pay Carlisle?

No compensation is due when a player is released as I understand it. Annan would only have had to pay Carlisle when they signed him, or have to pass on a portion of a tribunal fee from this transfer to Carlisle, if Carlisle had offered him at least the same terms again as he was already on but he opted to move to Annan instead. But since Carlisle simply released him as not good enough, Annan shouyldn't be due them anything.

[marco44]

I understand though, that his development took place at Carlisle. Does anyone know if Annan had to pay Carlisle?

I think he was released from Carlisle when he signed for Annan. Also heard that Carlisle get %20 of any fee Annan get for him.

[Homer Thompson]

9 hours ago, ThirdrockfromtheSon said:

I agree with most of what you're saying, Wilf.

They gave us a fantastic welcome that memorable day.

But I suspect that this is nothing more than sour grapes from one or two fans, and as S08 says, Chapman overvaluing him.

Why not take it to a tribunal then, if Dumbarton were so sure Chapman was overvaluing him?

No rules have been broken but this is pretty low from Dumbarton. You have to wonder who else turned down this deal. I cant imagine Dumbarton were the first club the agent rang when he came up with it.

[Jan Vojáček]

13 minutes ago, Mr X said:

Why not take it to a tribunal then, if Dumbarton were so sure Chapman was overvaluing him?

No rules have been broken but this is pretty low from Dumbarton. You have to wonder who else turned down this deal. I cant imagine Dumbarton were the first club the agent rang when he came up with it.

Here's the thing though, in his post-match interview on SonsTV Aitken said along the lines of "We couldn't afford a fee, but the lad himself sorted that out". Perhaps it wasn't us approaching him, but more him approaching us and offering his services as an amateur to get in the shop window.

He knows he'll be guaranteed gametime with us (unlike at the Pars, Ayr and even yourselves) due to our threadbare squad so it could be a case of take a hit this year (albeit I'd imagine we are paying good expenses, especially considering he lives in the borders according to his Twitter) and hope to get a full-time deal with a bigger club next season.

 

Edited July 18, 2016 by Sonsteam of 08

[Bring Back Paddy Flannery]

Why not take it to a tribunal then, if Dumbarton were so sure Chapman was overvaluing him?

No rules have been broken but this is pretty low from Dumbarton. You have to wonder who else turned down this deal. I cant imagine Dumbarton were the first club the agent rang when he came up with it.

I can see both sides of the argument.

At the end of the day, Annan paid Todd a wage and he done a job for their first team. They didn't have to nurture him from a young age, paying him and developing him before he started benefitting the first team.

Have we done anything wrong here? Absolutely not. Unless the rules outlaw it we are well within our rights to do so. Folk may view it as 'low' but would it be any lower than Annan holding a lad back who wishes to further his career at a higher level by looking for fee that no one is in a position to pay? Swings and roundabouts really.

If anything this highlights how much the compo thing can hold players back.

[Homer Thompson]

3 minutes ago, Sonsteam of 08 said:

Here's the thing though, in his post-match interview on SonsTV Aitken said along the lines of "We couldn't afford a fee, but the lad himself sorted that out". Perhaps it wasn't us approaching him, but more him approaching us and offering his services as an amateur to get in the shop window.

He knows he'll be guaranteed gametime with us (unlike at the Pars, Ayr and even yourselves) due to our threadbare squad so it could be a case of take a hit this year (albeit I'd imagine we are paying good expenses, especially considering he lives in the borders according to his Twitter) and hope to get a full-time deal with a bigger club next season.

You could be right about Dumbarton being a better option for more game time.

I thought it had already been established that the idea came from his agent? Im not suggesting the club have gone out of their way to get round the compensation rules, but thats the end result. 

The only way "the lad himself sorted that out" would be a justification would be if Todd (or his agent) paid Annan the compensation they were due.

Just now, Bring Back Paddy Flannery said:

 

I can see both sides of the argument.

At the end of the day, Annan paid Todd a wage and he done a job for their first team. They didn't have to nurture him from a young age, paying him and developing him before he started benefitting the first team.

Have we done anything wrong here? Absolutely not. Unless the rules outlaw it we are well within our rights to do so. Folk may view it as 'low' but would it be any lower than Annan holding a lad back who wishes to further his career at a higher level by looking for fee that no one is in a position to pay? Swings and roundabouts really.

If anything this highlights how much the compo thing can hold players back.

 

You havent done anything against the rules, but was it really the right thing to do?

Annan werent holding anyone back, nor were they in a position to dictate a fee. They obviously had a figure in mind but if Dumbarton didnt agree with it they could have taken it to a tribunal. Surely, that would be the "right" thing to do?

[Bring Back Paddy Flannery]

I should also add that absolutely nothing has been confirmed regarding Todd's deal other than the fact he's joined us.

Other than an article which was questioned by his agent, we have no confirmation he's here as an amateur.

[George Parr]

14 minutes ago, Mr X said:

You could be right about Dumbarton being a better option for more game time.

I thought it had already been established that the idea came from his agent? Im not suggesting the club have gone out of their way to get round the compensation rules, but thats the end result. 

The only way "the lad himself sorted that out" would be a justification would be if Todd (or his agent) paid Annan the compensation they were due.

You havent done anything against the rules, but was it really the right thing to do?

Annan werent holding anyone back, nor were they in a position to dictate a fee. They obviously had a figure in mind but if Dumbarton didnt agree with it they could have taken it to a tribunal. Surely, that would be the "right" thing to do?

The right thing to do is to work within the rules. Anything else is irrelevant.

[Skyline Drifter]

1 hour ago, Howlin' Wilf said:

I understand though, that his development took place at Carlisle. Does anyone know if Annan had to pay Carlisle?

"Development" takes place from the age of 12 to 21. Indeed some of his development took place with us as he was in our Club Academy set up for a year or so before he moved to Carlisle. He was still being developed when he first arrived at Annan but they'd be entitled to nothing for last season as he was over 21 then.

[Homer Thompson]

7 minutes ago, Consolidate said:

The right thing to do is to work within the rules. Anything else is irrelevant.

Are you an MP?

[Bring Back Paddy Flannery]

You havent done anything against the rules, but was it really the right thing to do?

Annan werent holding anyone back, nor were they in a position to dictate a fee. They obviously had a figure in mind but if Dumbarton didnt agree with it they could have taken it to a tribunal. Surely, that would be the "right" thing to do?

What defines what the 'right' thing do is? Staying within the rules would surely be the right thing to do? Anyway we need to look after number 1. Why on earth would we pay Annan a fee if we don't have to just because some folk consider it the 'right' thing to do?

This is all speculation. Absolutely no details have been released about the deal.

[Monkey Tennis]

8 minutes ago, Consolidate said:

The right thing to do is to work within the rules. Anything else is irrelevant.

Nonsense.

[Bring Back Paddy Flannery]

Nonsense.

How is it nonsense?

Why dont you define the 'right' thing to do.

Your arrival makes me fear how unbearably tedious this thread may become.

[ayetherock]

Back to the game. It didn't look going by the highlights the Dumbarton deserved to win the game.

[Homer Thompson]

Just now, Bring Back Paddy Flannery said:

 

What defines what the 'right' thing do is? Staying within the rules would surely be the right thing to do? Anyway we need to look after number 1. Why on earth would we pay Annan a fee if we don't have to just because some folk consider it the 'right' thing to do?

This is all speculation. Absolutely no details have been released about the deal.

 

Some things dont have to be defined as right or wrong, most people instinctively know. Most people would consider bending the rules to do another, small PT, club out of money they are entitled to "wrong" even if its not technically breaking the rules.

I guess the easiest test, though, would be to put yourself in Annans shoes. Say Dumbarton had been due a fee for Nade but he went off and signed as an amateur for Stranraer. I dont think Dumbarton fans would be on here sympathising with Stranraer and being ok with it because they hadnt broken the rules.

Its not really speculation, though is it? Dumbarton have signed an amateur player because they couldnt afford the compensation they should have paid to sign him as a professional.

[George Parr]

8 minutes ago, Mr X said:

Some things dont have to be defined as right or wrong, most people instinctively know. Most people would consider bending the rules to do another, small PT, club out of money they are entitled to "wrong" even if its not technically breaking the rules.

I guess the easiest test, though, would be to put yourself in Annans shoes. Say Dumbarton had been due a fee for Nade but he went off and signed as an amateur for Stranraer. I dont think Dumbarton fans would be on here sympathising with Stranraer and being ok with it because they hadnt broken the rules.

Its not really speculation, though is it? Dumbarton have signed an amateur player because they couldnt afford the compensation they should have paid to sign him as a professional.

Sanctimonious drivel.