Independence - how would you vote?

[Reynard]

Looks like balloons on sticks. You'll have to make your own pretend squeaky voice. Disappointing. http://www.thecourier.co.uk/news/local/fife/anger-over-staff-hostility-to-independence-campaigners-at-bruce-festival-1.125186

Maybe once the "big lads" have chased me across a field, managed to catch me and boot my baws I will be able to do it naturally though.

[Baxter Parp]

Sound advice but surely prevention rather than a solution.

Which is even better than a cure, you're welcome.

[Baxter Parp]

The Brian Souters of the world wont. They wont pay. The very rich never do. And if you tried to make them they d just domicile themselves elsewhere.

A/ Do you have any evidence that the rich will have to pay more B/ Do you have any reliable evidence that the rich will leave the country C/ If they're not paying now, why should we care?

[barrysnotter]

Looks like balloons on sticks. You'll have to make your own pretend squeaky voice. Disappointing. http://www.thecourier.co.uk/news/local/fife/anger-over-staff-hostility-to-independence-campaigners-at-bruce-festival-1.125186

Cheers Nifty.

Looks like the contributor to Wings forgot (or intentionally omitted?) a significant part of the story.

Maggie Mitchell, chief executive of Dunfermline Delivers, said: “Yes Scotland was unaware that the area outside the Glen Gates was booked by the Bruce Festival through the appropriate Fife Council channels. This is where the confusion arose.

“Fortunately, the exhibitor, whose allocated space the campaigners were occupying, didn’t turn up so we were able to accommodate them, after all.”

So the Yes Scotland campaigners were confronted not because of who they were but because they were occupying an area specifically booked by another event. So, the festival organisers did Yes Scotland a favour by letting them stay. You'd think these activists would be thanking them for being so accommodating.

XBL's claims of this evidencing "systematic tactics of intimidation" by "Project Fear" are now looking even more ludicrous than they did originally (and that takes some doing).

[Jordo1872]

My only problem with the Yes argument, is that there seems to be a lack of understanding towards why somebody will vote No. Now they will say, 'but I haven't heard a good argument for voting NO'. To an extent I can see their point, but the Yes campaign has got to remember that a fair amount of undecided to NO voters are voting because they are genuinely content with what they have, or they have an emotional attachment to the Union that logical points will not shift, shouting them down and makindgderogatory digs will not help.

This is why I have continued to keep putting myself in the shoes of a NO voter instead of shouting down their points, refusing aggressive persuasion as I've seen particularly on this thread many a time as well as my Twitter feed. There is still a larger amount of people in my hometown that are probably more in the majority of the No vote if anything (must be an east coast thing), whenever I talk to my mates about it in the pub. I could engage them, but I know that it would probably end in some verge of tears bitter argument and I refuse to get caught up in that in terms of risking the night out itself and pushing them further towards a NO.

From a NO perspective, if I'm thinking about it in the shoes of hardcore NO, then yeah I'm seeing it still as a risk that I should right question if it's worth gambling, I'm seeing a lack of transparency on the unnecessary need to keep the pound(Yes XBL I know lunacy to keep the pound on the first day, but not what I'm saying), when what they should have done is stated something along the lines of keep the currency until the end of the administration and put the agenda towards the wishes of the public vote in terms of the currency, along with the EU, and the Monarchy. I also would be thinking about it with some kind of dislike towards Salmond, the SNP and in particular the WoS blog.

Fortunately for myself, when I read their stuff I then start to notice that my arguments for the NO become out of spite to be against the SNP, rather than what I myself genuinely want to vote for in terms of Scotlands future. Personally, I find that I can overlook such annoyances as the Wos blog, or the SNP's need to turn everything Green without being more pragmatic about it, Sturgeon as a person in general, and that in spite of those reasons and the others mentioned, I still kinda want it to be YES, that I can argue against other YES voters, call them on their bullshit, and as strength.

I then start to realise the irony that an extreme amount (there are obviously some exceptions) of the Labour/Conservative/Lib Dem are forgetting a lot of the reasons that they used to stand for, foregoing those very morals to go against the SNP out of spite and self-preservation, instead of because of what they want Scotland as a nation to be. If a third of the Yes vote can challenge themselves between so many of their peers, then surely the big majority from a proportional perspective should be at the very least in the same ballpark. I mean how many civil arguments to you see between the BT campaign do you genuinely see in their disagreements in what they want Scotland to be like in the event of NO vote.

I am Jambo-Rocker, and I'm am now 100% voting YES.

The best post I've read on this thread in a long time.

[H_B]

Fay Sinclair sounds like a total moron.

[Baxter Parp]

So the Yes Scotland campaigners were confronted not because of who they were but because they were occupying an area specifically booked by another event. So, the festival organisers did Yes Scotland a favour by letting them stay. You'd think these activists would be thanking them for being so accommodating.

XBL's claims of this evidencing "systematic tactics of intimidation" by "Project Fear" are now looking even more ludicrous than they did originally (and that takes some doing).

As has already been pointed out elsewhere, how in fucks name does one "book" a public pavement? The Yes stall was far from the event and far from any of the event's stalls. Claiming that someone had cancelled at the last minute on a spot that couldn't in any way be booked stretches credibility to breaking point.

[nifty shade of grey]

Fay Sinclair sounds like a total moron.

But the sweary, walkie-talkie waving, abusive, agressive bloke who shouted (while standing at the entrance to the Bruce Festival) at a heavily pregnant woman that "Bruce just fought for money" isn't a total moron?

Same bloke was also "hostile" to Cllr Hanvey, who just happens to be SNP.

@BarrySnotter: That article says Yes Scotland turned up with prior agreement (“I spoke to him and asked him to tone it down a notch as it was agreed we would be there") and were abused by security staff. Now who's omitting things? And regardless of the circumstances, whatever happened to "excuse me folks, this space is reserved, you're meant to be over there - oh, I see you're heavily pregnant, may I help you move"?

It all turned out nice in the end, as it was just a misunderstanding and nobody knew that the space had been allocated to someone else who conveniently didn't turn up (I smell a cop-out!). That's a shame - imagine the comedy potential of a fight between balloon wielding Yes campaigners and angry Fifers on a displaced home-baking stall.

[H_B]

Yes.. bouncer types are also penises. Sounds like this guy was a total arsehole too.

Does nt sound like this is anything at all to do with better together though. Just Fifer Bruce group v Fifer Yes group.

[vikingTON]

Polling data has shown that Yes support is strongest in the poorer lower earning part of the demographic. This makes sense. If i was unemployed or on minimum wage id probably vote Yes. Why not? Cant be any worse than what you have right?

But the SNP wont and arent winning the middle income vote. We have a lot more to lose. And some of us believe we ll be worse off post indy.

Erm, the SNP have already won a substantial share of middle income constituencies in the last two Scottish Parliament elections. In contrast to the genuinely low income areas, which rather predicted maintained their timeless donkey in a red rosette status. With this in mind, it's quite a stretch to believe that the same Labour heartlands are in fact bastions of independence support, whereas slightly more respectable areas like, say, Stirling, are in fact full of Alex Massie-lite SNP voters.

Your theory isn't stacking up.

[barrysnotter]

As has already been pointed out elsewhere, how in fucks name does one "book" a public pavement? The Yes stall was far from the event and far from any of the event's stalls. Claiming that someone had cancelled at the last minute on a spot that couldn't in any way be booked stretches credibility to breaking point.

The same way you book a park, or a square or a sports centre, by contacting the local authority and agreeing terms. Are you not aware that local authorities rent out public spaces to advertisers, charities, car manufacturers, energy firms as a source of income?

Whether someone else turned up or not, of an area was booked by an event they are entitled to use it however they see fit, including leaving it empty.

Where's the link to Better Together or the link to political intimidation? Looks like a fight over a pitch, the type of thing you probably get at car boot sales up and down the country every Saturday morning.

[Mr.Bojangles]

Is that based on actual polling? I'd be very surprised. Just from personal experience I've noticed that the more educated the person the more likely they are to be leaning yes.

[H_B]

 

Erm, the SNP have already won a substantial share of middle income constituencies in the last two Scottish Parliament elections. In contrast to the genuinely low income areas, which rather predicted maintained their timeless donkey in a red rosette status. With this in mind, it's quite a stretch to believe that the same Labour heartlands are in fact bastions of independence support, whereas slightly more respectable areas like, say, Stirling, are in fact full of Alex Massie-lite SNP voters.

 

Your theory isn't stacking up.

What do votes for the SNP in the SP elections have to do with Independence? I voted for the SNP.

Polling data proves my point. Its lower incomeh households that are much more likely to be for Yes than higher income households.

Thats already been shown on this thread.

[H_B]

Is that based on actual polling? I'd be very surprised. Just from personal experience I've noticed that the more educated the person the more likely they are to be leaning yes.

My personal experience is exactly the opposite. And yes, polling data backs up my point.

I posted it earlier on this thread. Using my phone which makes searching harder.

[Baxter Parp]

Whether someone else turned up or not, of an area was booked by an event they are entitled to use it however they see fit, including leaving it empty.

The event was in the park, the stall was outside. Are you saying that the Bruce festival had booked the park and its environs? Because that will take some evidence to prove.

[Baxter Parp]

And yes, polling data backs up my point.

Could you link to this earlier post, please? Or quote from it, at least?

[xbl]

My personal experience is exactly the opposite. And yes, polling data backs up my point.

I posted it earlier on this thread. Using my phone which makes searching harder.

Why, do you know any intelligent people? Do they keep you around to laugh at?

[Baxter Parp]

http://wingsoverscotland.com/woman-confused-about-location/

Ruth makes a pig of it.

[barrysnotter]

The event was in the park, the stall was outside. Are you saying that the Bruce festival had booked the park and its environs? Because that will take some evidence to prove.

The festival organiser says so in that very article posted by Nifty. I have taken her evidence at face value in the same way I have taken the activists' evidence at face value.

[vikingTON]

What do votes for the SNP in the SP elections have to do with Independence? I voted for the SNP.

You're the one who cited that "the SNP" were failing to win middle income votes, champ. That's patently not the case.

Polling data proves my point. Its lower incomeh households that are much more likely to be for Yes than higher income households.

Thats already been shown on this thread.

So low-income Labour heartlands are actually hotbeds for independence support? As opposed to comparatively wealthy SNP heartlands like Aberdeenshire?

A simple yes or no answer will suffice here.