SodjesSixteenIncher Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 I don't really get the "well the North East rejected an assembly" line - people would still be campaigning for independence here, i don;t see what difference it makes. Because one of the arguments against "nationalism" in the Scottish context is some kind of supposed kinship with the people of Northern England. My argument is you can't help those who don't want to help themselves. We shouldn't cringe ourselves out of advancement by worrying about people loyal to a system that's failed them more than anyone. Apart from anything, I don't really care that "we're the same people" because I don't see the people of Ireland, the Netherlands or anywhere else as a different type of person to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banterman86 Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 Because one of the arguments against "nationalism" in the Scottish context is some kind of supposed kinship with the people of Northern England. And kinship with people in Wales too? Who have a devolved assembly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SodjesSixteenIncher Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 And kinship with people in Wales too? Who have a devolved assembly? Wales where the United Kingdom Independence Party just came a close second in a vote on Thursday ? As stated previously, living under the same state as the people in Wales means absolutely f**k all to me because nationalism isn't really my thing. Pretty sure I've got more common with a social democrat in Copenhagen than some fanny in Swansea who thinks immigrants and da EU is to blame for his shit life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banterman86 Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 Wales where the United Kingdom Independence Party just came a close second in a vote on Thursday ? What's that got to do with anything? your point was "My argument is you can't help those who don't want to help themselves. We shouldn't cringe ourselves out of advancement by worrying about people loyal to a system that's failed them more than anyone" My point is this kinship point is also made in relation to Wales, which has a devolved assembly, they have helped themselves. So the whole "they didn;t take the offer of devo, f**k them" is just a bit of a pointless argument really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SodjesSixteenIncher Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 What's that got to do with anything? your point was "My argument is you can't help those who don't want to help themselves. We shouldn't cringe ourselves out of advancement by worrying about people loyal to a system that's failed them more than anyone" My point is this kinship point is also made in relation to Wales, which has a devolved assembly, they have helped themselves. So the whole "they didn;t take the offer of devo, f**k them" is just a bit of a pointless argument really. My point wasn't that Scotland should only have loyalty to parts of the UK who voted for devolution, it was that kinship to anyone in this argument is irrelevant/non-exisistant. We have the cards in our hand to get out of the UK and sustain a country, Northern England (and Wales) do not - for the reasons I mentioned in the post you objected to. The idea we should reject this selfish independence because it isn't fair on Wales or Northern England (which as an argument suggests to me that it would be good for us) because of kinship means nothing to me. Give me one reason I should consider Wales, Northern Ireland or Northern England when I'm voting in September? Not "we're the same people" or "we're the same country" though, something not based on nationalism please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banterman86 Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 My point wasn't that Scotland should only have loyalty to parts of the UK who voted for devolution, it was that kinship to anyone in this argument is irrelevant/non-exisistant. We have the cards in our hand to get out of the UK and sustain a country, Northern England (and Wales) do not - for the reasons I mentioned in the post you objected to. The idea we should reject this selfish independence because it isn't fair on Wales or Northern England (which as an argument suggests to me that it would be good for us) because of kinship means nothing to me. Give me one reason I should consider Wales, Northern Ireland or Northern England when I'm voting in September? Not "we're the same people" or "we're the same country" though, something not based on nationalism please. No, I completely undersatnd the lack of kinship argument, what I'm saying is that i think the devolution point is a bit pointless, given the NE voted against it, and the welsh for it. It wouldn't change the independence argument, so I'm not sure why people still bring it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 Again, not the same thing. Should any region of the UK wish to push for federalism or indeed secession, I would support their right to do so. In the case of Shetland, despite numerous amusing attempts in the likes of the Daily Mail to suggest that there is a burning desire to avoid being part of an independent Scotland, actual polls have shown that only 5-12% of residents would be in favour of the question even being formally addressed. Not really a parallel then. You didn't answer the question. Please do so. Is it fair that the people of Shetlands voted for the Lib Dems yet have to suffer a government they didn't want and didn't vote for. Yes or No? To pick an example off the top of my head, what's so dreadful about Tibetans that want freedom from China? What has that to do with being Nationalists? Wishing independence for a geographical location doesn't mean you are a Nationalist. Ad Lib for example is a Yes voter, but is not a Nationalist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SodjesSixteenIncher Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 No, I completely undersatnd the lack of kinship argument, what I'm saying is that i think the devolution point is a bit pointless, given the NE voted against it, and the welsh for it. It wouldn't change the independence argument, so I'm not sure why people still bring it up. Because people always mention that specific place when raising an argument that we both agree is totally pointless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ad Lib Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 Again, not the same thing. Should any region of the UK wish to push for federalism or indeed secession, I would support their right to do so. In the case of Shetland, despite numerous amusing attempts in the likes of the Daily Mail to suggest that there is a burning desire to avoid being part of an independent Scotland, actual polls have shown that only 5-12% of residents would be in favour of the question even being formally addressed. Not really a parallel then. The problem with this is you're missing the point. It's not that Shetland should or shouldn't ask for self-government. It's that the mere fact that they don't get the government they vote for is not in itself a reason that they should or should not self-govern. Political communities are compound, not simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banterman86 Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 Because people always mention that specific place when raising an argument that we both agree is totally pointless. No, I'm saying the counter to the kinsip argument by mentioning devolution is pointless, because different parts of the UK have differeng levels of devolution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SodjesSixteenIncher Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 No, I'm saying the counter to the kinsip argument by mentioning devolution is pointless, because different parts of the UK have differeng levels of devolution. The devolution argument is extremely relevant to explaining why we needn't feel guilty about going our seperate way from Northern England. People mention this specific place because they think their tendency towards the Labour Party and geographical proximity to Scotland, should garner some sentimental sense of brotherhood and that this kinship should be considered before all else. They don't mention other parts of the UK because this flimsy false-logic doesn't work as well when applied to the Midlands, London, Wales, Northern Ireland etc. If Scottish cringers are going to keep mentioning the grim North that oh so needs our solidarity, as some kind of actual point, people are going to keep pointing out why we can't wait for them forever. If this happens, you'll just have to deal with it I'm afraid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milton75 Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 See, I sympathise with the "it's what we've got and there is inertia to proper change" thing but that's not really the point. The point is that in all democracies you sacrifice minority community influence. This isn't necessarily a bad thing: it is often conducive towards resolving conflicting positions between different communities. When people present this "getting the government you vote for" thing, they are misunderstanding what it means to vote for a government in the first place. They aren't engaging with the fundamental question about political community. They are just asserting that one of them takes primacy in all situations. Which then poses problems conceptually when they are also (correctly) in favour of the European Union, where how Scotland votes has virtually no effect on the overall composition of the Parliament whatsoever. Well this is true, but then on the other hand any argue that minority (or even extremist) groups have excessive influence because of the publicity they garner and the fact that their seats are sometimes used to achieve majority coalitions (see Italy et al). But that's not my point. I was responding solely to the question as to whether there is a democratic deficit being suffered by Yorkshire or Shetland, and my response was simply that even if there is, it is not contextually the same sort of deficit being referenced vis a vis Scotland, being as we have a framework extant within which change can be enabled. I don't dispute the principle; I merely don't see it as a relevance to the Scottish Independence debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banterman86 Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 If Scottish cringers are going to keep mentioning the grim North that oh so needs our solidarity, as some kind of actual point, people are going to keep pointing out why we can't wait for them forever.. Wait for what? What difference would it make to the Scottish Independence camapign if there was a NE assembly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milton75 Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 You didn't answer the question. Please do so. Is it fair that the people of Shetlands voted for the Lib Dems yet have to suffer a government they didn't want and didn't vote for. Yes or No? I actually don't think "fairness" comes into it, and would not have a clue as to how to arbitrate on the matter anyway. That general point notwithstanding, if you look at my late post to Ad Lib, you'll see that I addressed this: What's "special" about countries, at least in this instance, is that they provide a recognised context in which issues like federalism and secession are tackled. That's not to say that there's any reason that the same principle shouldn't apply to a region or city, but you would have to establish a framework in which the process would occur. We have that in Scotland, we don't in the South-East of England. It may not be fair, but it's the way it is and not an argument against Scotland exercising the rights proposed by the Scottish Parliament and agreed to by Westminster. If you want to push for a federalised and eventually independent SE England, no-one is stopping you. Get a groundswell of opinion there backing you and march on Parliament. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milton75 Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 What has that to do with being Nationalists? Wishing independence for a geographical location doesn't mean you are a Nationalist. Ad Lib for example is a Yes voter, but is not a Nationalist. The Free Tibeters believe in the concept of Tibetan sovereignty, and thereby re-establishment of the country as a sovereign nation. They are Nationalists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milton75 Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 The problem with this is you're missing the point. It's not that Shetland should or shouldn't ask for self-government. It's that the mere fact that they don't get the government they vote for is not in itself a reason that they should or should not self-govern. Political communities are compound, not simple. I'm not saying it is or isn't a reason. I'm simply saying that in Scotland we have the framework to decide whether we remain part of the UK or not, and will be utilising it one way or the other next year. It's not that I don't recognise your principle, but I'm saying that in practice there isn't a parity between the situations so far listed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SodjesSixteenIncher Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 Wait for what? Waiting for Northern England to empower itself and pull itself by t'bootstraps to being an economic contributor to the United Kingdom. Apparently we shouldn't vote for Independece because this is Scotland's job for some reason. What difference would it make to the Scottish Independence camapign if there was a NE assembly? Have a look back and try and find where I've said this. Here was my point. If the people of Northern England want to get the devolution thing going on again; actually take it this time; get their heads together and make their part of the world an economically viable state instead of a subsidised shitehole and elect a government with a referendum mandate; then I'd highly recommend they vote for Independence. It was adressing an analogy being floated of "why shouldn't these other regions become Independent then?" My point was that if these hypothetical places had what Scotland have - one element being a Parliament - they absolutely should vote for Independence. The assemblyless NE has absolutely nothing to do with Scottish Independence. Which was actually my point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 The Free Tibeters believe in the concept of Tibetan sovereignty, and thereby re-establishment of the country as a sovereign nation. They are Nationalists. What, all of them? I completely reject any concept of nationalism as being positive. There may very well be many good reasons for Tibet becoming a self-governing entity. It's two very separate things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamaldo Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 I think there should be an online test to determine whether or not you're a nationalist. At the moment I don't have a clue if I am as the term has been utterly ruined in this debate. It has been used to generalise Yes voters and it goes without saying that a lot of them are not nationalists. Me? Well I have described myself as one in the past but as I say the word has been overused and in the context of Scottish Independence it's difficult to know what it really means. I want us to control our own policies and I don't feel any emotional connection to people in other countries in the UK. But on the other hand, there are stereotypical parts of Scottish culture I don't really get either. I've never watched Braveheart and I won't celebrate Bannockburn because it's not my thing. And just because the Commonwealth games are in Scotland this year doesn't mean I'll suddenly be watching every event. Like the Olympics, it just doesn't really interest me because they aren't my kind of sports. Who knows. I just want us to become independent and if people want to label me then they can go right ahead. I'm doing nothing wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blaven Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 If England was breaking away from Scotland, how much thought do you think the north of England would give to the Jocks? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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