Ad Lib Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 The Free Tibeters believe in the concept of Tibetan sovereignty, and thereby re-establishment of the country as a sovereign nation. They are Nationalists. Supporting the sovereignty or self-determination of a peoples is not the same as wanting them to be a "nation". Statehood and nationhood are different and you can support one but not the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banterman86 Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 It was adressing an analogy being floated of "why shouldn't these other regions become Independent then?" My point was that if these hypothetical places had what Scotland have - one element being a Parliament - they absolutely should vote for Independence. Ah, fair enough I suppose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banterman86 Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 If England was breaking away from Scotland, how much thought do you think the north of England would give to the Jocks? I have no idea, do you? Whisltb we're at it was the 2011 election a vote for independence? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blaven Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 I think there should be an online test to determine whether or not you're a nationalist. At the moment I don't have a clue if I am as the term has been utterly ruined in this debate. It has been used to generalise Yes voters and it goes without saying that a lot of them are not nationalists. Me? Well I have described myself as one in the past but as I say the word has been overused and in the context of Scottish Independence it's difficult to know what it really means. I want us to control our own policies and I don't feel any emotional connection to people in other countries in the UK. But on the other hand, there are stereotypical parts of Scottish culture I don't really get either. I've never watched Braveheart and I won't celebrate Bannockburn because it's not my thing. And just because the Commonwealth games are in Scotland this year doesn't mean I'll suddenly be watching every event. Like the Olympics, it just doesn't really interest me because they aren't my kind of sports. Who knows. I just want us to become independent and if people want to label me then they can go right ahead. I'm doing nothing wrong. Do you think everyone in Scotland should - Wear a kilt? Play bagpipes? Own a caber? Have a "I hate England" tattoo? Have the complete works of Runrig? Eat shortbread twice a day? Drink only a single malt whiskey ( no ice)? Shout "FREEEEEEDOM" every day? If not, then your not a true Nationalist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blaven Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 Was the 2011 Scottish Election a referendum on independence? Was 22/5/14 an election on a Europe matter or just the local council? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banterman86 Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 Was 22/5/14 an election on a Europe matter or just the local council? Depends where you voted! lets try again - was the 2011 Scottish election a referendum on independence? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blaven Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 Depends where you voted! lets try again - was the 2011 Scottish election a referendum on independence? Try away. Nope. Had a look back. Cant find where I said 2011 was a referendum. So your point is?Where in EU did not not have a Euro election like? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banterman86 Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 Try away. Nope. Had a look back. Cant find where I said 2011 was a referendum. So your point is? Then why are you suggesting the results of the euro elections are indicative that the UK would vote to leave the EU? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blaven Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 Then why are you suggesting the results of the euro elections are indicative that the UK would vote to leave the EU? Why are you suggesting that it will have no bearing on an IN - OUT referendum? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banterman86 Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 Why are you suggesting that it will have no bearing on an IN - OUT referendum? I haven't said that. I've said the results of last week does not mean the UK would vote to leave the EU, that's not the same as "no bearing" What i intitally asked was is there any proof the Uk wants to leave - ie polling? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milton75 Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 What has that to do with being Nationalists? Wishing independence for a geographical location doesn't mean you are a Nationalist. Ad Lib for example is a Yes voter, but is not a Nationalist. The Free Tibeters believe in the concept of Tibetan sovereignty, and thereby re-establishment of the country as a sovereign nation. They are Nationalists. What, all of them? I completely reject any concept of nationalism as being positive. There may very well be many good reasons for Tibet becoming a self-governing entity. It's two very separate things. Why are you asking if that applies to all of them? You're the one making spurious sweeping generalisations. Your earlier post was the following: I'm not a British nationalist. I find Nationalists of all varieties dreadful. If someone wants freedom for Tibet, they believe in the concept of Tibet being a sovereign nation; they are a nationalist. Each of those individuals may or may not believe in the "good reasons" that you generously concede "may well" exist for the country not to have been annexed by the Chinese, but according to your earlier comment, all of them are dreadful. It's farcical generalising like this that makes it impossible to read your posts as anything other than trolling... particularly when a symbol of nationhood is proudly displayed in your avatar beside each post deriding "and concept of nationalism". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 If someone wants freedom for Tibet, they believe in the concept of Tibet being a sovereign nation; they are a nationalist. "Freedom for Tibet" doesn't necessarily mean you are a Nationalist. This really isn't complicated. This can be resolved simply :- Do you think all those who believe in Scottish Independence are Nationalists - yes or no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 The problem here appears to be that you don't understand what a nationalist is. Fundamentally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamaldo Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 The problem here appears to be that you don't understand what a nationalist is. Fundamentally. What do you believe it means? Particulary in the context of Scottish Independence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 What do you believe it means? Particulary in the context of Scottish Independence. I have no issues with people who wish Scotland to become Independent because they believe it offers the most representative government, or the best structural model to meet particular needs etc. This is true of any geographic entity. Those who are Yes voters just cos Scotland should rise and be a nation again (Freedummmm) are idiots. If Tibetans believe their lot would be best served as an Independent nation, I'm right behind them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 In your opinion. Yes. Hence why I find Nationalists dreadful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~~~ Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 I have no issues with people who wish Scotland to become Independent because they believe it offers the most representative government, or the best structural model to meet particular needs etc. This is true of any geographic entity. Those who are Yes voters just cos Scotland should rise and be a nation again (Freedummmm) are idiots. If Tibetans believe their lot would be best served as an Independent nation, I'm right behind them. I agree with this. Unfortunately it's in the best interests of the no campaign to suggest all indy supporters are either nationalists ,furiously w**k over braveheart, are anti English, or all of the above Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 I agree with this. Unfortunately it's in the best interests of the no campaign to suggest all indy supporters are either nationalists ,furiously w**k over braveheart, are anti English, or all of the above And in the same way, some Yes supporters try and pretend No voters are committed Unionists, and/or have great affinity for British nationalism, when many just don't believe secession is the correct route for Scotland. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~~~ Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 And in the same way, some Yes supporters try and pretend No voters are committed Unionists, and/or have great affinity for British nationalism, when many just don't believe secession is the correct route for Scotland. Once again, this must be a record for me I agree with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 Once again, this must be a record for me I agree with you. It's why I've continually said I have no argument with all Yes voters, and indeed will feel sorry for those campaigning for what they see as the correct structural model for Scotland to adopt after a defeat. I also find arguments in this vein the most convincing and there are a lot of decent arguments for secession. It's also why I think the Yes campaign hasn't done a good enough job in distancing themselves from the SNP. And of course, the nationalist idiots on here are actually detrimental to the cause. Those who use rhetoric about No voters betraying the country and rubbish about "Scotland should be an independent nation...cos it's just natural". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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