Scottish Independence

[Confidemus]

You've neve heard the argumenty "vote no to stay in solidarity with the working classes of england and Wales"?

I said I've never heard a No voter say "how will it effect, England, Wales and Northern ireland".

Sorry to be pedantic, but, y'know, I learned off you, H_B and chummy down there.

It's the common refrain issued by quite a few Yes voters in response to the more socialist leaning "common cause" argument made by many Unionists who feel they have more in common, politically, culturally, socially and economically, with people in similar predicaments in Manchester than they do with those from a more privileged economic and social background in Scotland.

Is it? If it's common, you won't mind if I ask you to provide ten seperate examples of Yes voters using this arguement?

[Guest]

It's the common refrain issued by quite a few Yes voters in response to the more socialist leaning "common cause" argument made by many Unionists who feel they have more in common, politically, culturally, socially and economically, with people in similar predicaments in Manchester than they do with those from a more privileged economic and social background in Scotland.

As a privileged, hopelessly middle class person living in Scotland, I don't particularly feel as though I have anything particularly special in common with most Scots or Brits, or Europeans. Except Thistle fans.

Can't say I have seen it arise too often, if at all, but I'll take your word for it.

I'll happily take a brutal stance on this and say I couldn't care less about the rest of the UK tbh. It's Scotland and Scotland only that concerns me.

What a bad Brit that must make me

[Blaven]

It's the common refrain issued by quite a few Yes voters in response to the more socialist leaning "common cause" argument made by many Unionists who feel they have more in common, politically, culturally, socially and economically, with people in similar predicaments in Manchester than they do with those from a more privileged economic and social background in Scotland.

And your NOT allowed to better yourself unless you better everyone else at the same time.

What are the people of Manchester doing to help the people of Scotland? ( dont say giving Scottish managers a job)

[banterman86]

I said I've never heard a No voter say "how will it effect, England, Wales and Northern ireland".

Sorry to be pedantic, but, y'know, I learned off you, H_B and chummy down there.

Okay, do you accept the argument exists?

[Confidemus]

Okay, do you accept the argument exists?

I don't think it's practical to this forum, or feasible to consider in the context of Scottish prople voting on the referendum, so no.

[banterman86]

I don't think it's practical to this forum, or feasible to consider in the context of Scottish prople voting on the referendum, so no.

I have no idea what you mean by this.

i have had this argument/debate with posters on here - Renton on af ew occasions and Sodje fairly recently.

[~~~]

You've neve heard the argumenty "vote no to stay in solidarity with the working classes of england and Wales"?

Straight out the George Galloway handbook

[Ad Lib]

And your NOT allowed to better yourself unless you better everyone else at the same time.

What are the people of Manchester doing to help the people of Scotland? ( dont say giving Scottish managers a job)

You're fundamentally missing the point. Why can't you conceive that not everything has to be about what is in Scotland's interests? In much the same way as some No voters are criticised for pursuing their self-interest or the interests of people like them, why shouldn't this logic extend to go beyond Scotland's borders? It's not a question of "what are the people of Manchester doing to help the people of Scotland". It's about "What are this bigger community, this bigger society, doing, collectively, to pursue the common good?"

The common good goes beyond Scotland's borders. It goes even beyond the UK's borders. Sometimes "Scotland's interests" come directly into conflict with it, and in those circumstances, some people believe that Scotland's interests should yield to the greater imperative or moral challenge. That may be constrained, at the practical level, by the borders of the UK, but it doesn't mean those same said people are not in favour of wanting to increase the UK's links with everyone else.

[banterman86]

Straight out the George Galloway handbook

Yeah exactly - Galloway (who is a bawbag to be clear) is someone who uses it a lot.

[~~~]

Yeah exactly - Galloway (who is a bawbag to be clear) is someone who uses it a lot.

Yip, despite being a career politician he claims to have more in common with working class in Liverpool than a farmer in Aberdeen.

Never understood the logic behind it, as I assume this means he has very little in common with non working class people no matter where in the world they're from

[ayrmad]

I'm a selfish b*****d, the poor in the rUK might well be worse off after a YES vote, if they choose to sit and take what's happening then it's tough titties from me, if they choose to change their country I'd be supportive and delighted.

[invergowrie arab]

I completely get the common cause argument and not splitting the working class. I have heard it a good few times. I used to be in the swp and it was their stock answer to the Scottish Indy question issued forth from the leadership in London ( you don't have to be a big party to utter this Pish) until their own internal bloodletting (again) and road to Damascus about turn.

However, in the same way that many Yessers look to.Scandinavia for an example of what a sociaally progressive society might look like the best thing we can do for the English working class is make sure Jerusalem is builded here as an example to them.

Also, I'm pretty sure,but could be wrong, some trade unions work across borders in the UK and Ireland.

[AUFC90]

You're fundamentally missing the point. Why can't you conceive that not everything has to be about what is in Scotland's interests?

Last I looked we were having a referendum in Scotland. I'm voting for what I think is best for Scotland. Not Manchester, Newcastle or any other northern Engliah city that Westminster has abandoned.

[loyal-blue]

Okay, I'll post my most recent thoughts on the referendum.

The debate has long since moved on from 'could' or 'can' Scotland become an independent nation. I think both sides agree on that fact and there are various quotes to back that up. Sadly some people are a bit preoccupied with that and the fearmongering detracts from the discussion.

The question then (and indeed the question that will be asked) is should Scotland become an independent nation?

Now, let's be honest. Scotland could become a successful nation. It could become the greatest nation on earth, or it could become a horrendous nation. The fact of the matter is that it will be almost entirely in our own hands. This is why I despair when I hear solid 'no' voters, particularly amongst the young. Do we not trust ourselves to run our own country?

We have the potential to break away from brand 'UK' and start again. Instead of all this negativity we can use the political engagement which this debate is encouraging, to work together to create a nation we are proud of.

Now, in the short term there might be difficulties, however a yes vote would give us the chance to become a great nation in the future.

We could become a nation free from nuclear weapons and we could use our new found voice on the world stage to drive for change internationally.

At home we could tackle some of the big issues which affect Scotland in our own way and through our own ingenuity.

I could go on... this is just my view on things, but who could say no to that vision?

[loyal-blue]

As for abandoning other parts of the UK, that is surely not true.

If Westminster lost Scotland then surely they would have to make huge changes to their political system. Of course that would be an issue for those in England to debate and solve.

It would also be ridiculous to suggest (I've heard this a lot) that my desire to help those living in poverty in the UK is any greater than my desire to help those living in poverty anywhere else in the world. A vote for independence certainly wouldn't change this, however it would give us a greater opportunity to make a difference.

[I'm Brian]

Okay, I'll post my most recent thoughts on the referendum.

The debate has long since moved on from 'could' or 'can' Scotland become an independent nation. I think both sides agree on that fact and there are various quotes to back that up. Sadly some people are a bit preoccupied with that and the fearmongering detracts from the discussion.

The question then (and indeed the question that will be asked) is should Scotland become an independent nation?

Now, let's be honest. Scotland could become a successful nation. It could become the greatest nation on earth, or it could become a horrendous nation. The fact of the matter is that it will be almost entirely in our own hands. This is why I despair when I hear solid 'no' voters, particularly amongst the young. Do we not trust ourselves to run our own country?

We have the potential to break away from brand 'UK' and start again. Instead of all this negativity we can use the political engagement which this debate is encouraging, to work together to create a nation we are proud of.

Now, in the short term there might be difficulties, however a yes vote would give us the chance to become a great nation in the future.

We could become a nation free from nuclear weapons and we could use our new found voice on the world stage to drive for change internationally.

At home we could tackle some of the big issues which affect Scotland in our own way and through our own ingenuity.

I could go on... this is just my view on things, but who could say no to that vision?

There undoubtedly will be difficulties. Nothing in life runs smoothly. What pisses me off so much with the No side is that they don't highlight that there will be difficulties as we are in the UK.

[AUFC90]

I reckon there would be an English parliament within 20 years of a yes vote. The political system would be shook up big time. That could be a good thing for the very people that would be affected the most by Scotland leaving.

[Confidemus]

I have no idea what you mean by this.

I'm often confused by your conjecture, so glad to return the favour.

[Carl Cort's Hamstring]

I reckon there would be an English parliament within 20 years of a yes vote. The political system would be shook up big time. That could be a good thing for the very people that would be affected the most by Scotland leaving.

I can't see there ever being an English Parliament to be honest. A First Minister for England would be far too powerful for a Prime Minister to sanction it. I do agree that a bit of political introspection would be a welcome benefit of Scottish independence though.

[Ad Lib]

I would argue that an English Parliament otherwise than by the complete break-up of England, Wales and Northern Ireland into its three constituent parts, is actually less likely if Scotland leaves the United Kingdom. The primary obstacle to federalism proper is England's size and dominance relative to the other component parts. That issue becomes more, not less, concentrated, if Scotland is no longer a part of the equation.