Scottish Independence

[forever_blue]

Boo hoo. If that's one of the most arrogant things you've ever read, you'd better stay in the house for the next 3 months.

I have seen plenty more arrogant than that from the No side.

Dry your eyes.

christ i thought the bralt was bad for whataboutery

[Burma]

I think all three parties have quite clearly made promises have they not?

it is clearly a different type of uncertainty from independence, "what powers when" is not a comparable question to "what currency will we use"

They have made vague unstructured and non-commital promises that they will write it up and present a policy on it some point between sept 2014 and the next GE in 2016. Uncertainty yes?

The uncertainty as ultimately defined by the NO campaign is exactly the same as that which they offer. They may choose to ask different questions but as far as the referendum is concerned voting NO is as much of "a leap in the dark" as voting YES is. To claim that simply because the questions are different, then the frame of reference is altered (a unionist frame of reference bear in mind) is fundamentally flawed and ultimately dishonest.

[banterman86]

They have made vague unstructured and non-commital promises that they will write it up and present a policy on it some point between sept 2014 and the next GE in 2016. Uncertainty yes?

How are we defining vague here? i thought all 3 comissions were quite detailed (granted I haven;t properly read any of them) and also quite clear in what they were proposing?

[Burma]

How are we defining vague here? i thought all 3 comissions were quite detailed (granted I haven;t properly read any of them) and also quite clear in what they were proposing?

Vague in the context of being unclear as to what their final policies, which will not be presented to the Scottish people until after the refetendum, will be.

[~~~]

I think all three parties have quite clearly made promises have they not?

it is clearly a different type of uncertainty from independence, "what powers when" is not a comparable question to "what currency will we use"

We'll use the £

They've had years to tell us what these "guaranteed powers" yet all we know is these unknown powers will be promised after a potential no vote.

They must know if these "guaranteed powers" turn out to be pretty shit before the referendum if could sway voters towards yes. But if they don't tell us until afterwards, it wouldn't really matter if we felt let down.

[banterman86]

Vague in the context of being unclear as to what their final policies, which will not be presented to the Scottish people until after the refetendum, will be.

As in what would be in the enxt Scotland Act? Would your preference be the 3 developed a cross party proposal?

[banterman86]

They've had years to tell us what these "guaranteed powers" yet all we know is these unknown powers will be promised after a potential no vote.

Bear in mind during these years the Scotland Act has been passed and it's implmentation begun - whilst it would be a weak argument, the No side would eb entirely truthful to say "more powers garunteed" even if the parties had proposed nowt given the scotland Act won;t be fully implemented until 2016.

[the jambo-rocker]

Why couldn't have to coalition proposed a bill on further powers for Scotland in the Queen's speech just past? Why do they have to wait for the No vote?

Why couldn't the three union parties put together a further prospectus together collectively? By their logic, pooling and working together = Better proposals #amirite

[Tio Pepe]

Boo hoo. If that's one of the most arrogant things you've ever read, you'd better stay in the house for the next 3 months.

I have seen plenty more arrogant than that from the No side.

Dry your eyes.

My eyes are fine thank you. Again you demonstrate your total inability to engage in adult debate.

And of course you just had to insert the obligatory 'but, but what about them'

Hopeless.

[Lex]

Why couldn't the three union parties put together a further prospectus together collectively? By their logic, pooling and working together = Better proposals #amirite

They will. It's a proposal that's been worked on just now. The 3 party pledge on further devolution will be delivered in the weeks leading up to the referendum.

I expect it will be the final nail in the separatists coffin.

Link:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/scottish-independence-three-main-parties-set-to-make-joint-pledge-guaranteeing-more-devolved-powers-to-scotland-9511310.html

[Wee Bully]

They will. It's a proposal that's been worked on just now. The 3 party pledge on further devolution will be delivered in the weeks leading up to the referendum.

I expect it will be the final nail in the separatists coffin.

Agreed. (Further) devolution will kill Nationalism stone dead.

[Burma]

As in what would be in the enxt Scotland Act? Would your preference be the 3 developed a cross party proposal?

My preference would be an Indy Scotland as anything less is, well, less.

But that aside, all three parties have had two years to form a consensus and negotiate a Devoplus/Devomax, which they could then have presented on the ballot paper. There were calls from the Scottish Labour rank and file to do just that. All three parties refused and actually demanded that this be removed from the discussion ASAP. Now they want it back on the agenda ASAP, without having to actually offer anything this time round. The vagueness of it is encapsulated in the phrases of "we can talk about that at the next GE where we will probably have policies on it".

[banterman86]

My preference would be an Indy Scotland as anything less is, well, less.

But that aside, all three parties have had two years to form a consensus and negotiate a Devoplus/Devomax, which they could then have presented on the ballot paper. There were calls from the Scottish Labour rank and file to do just that. All three parties refused and actually demanded that this be removed from the discussion ASAP. Now they want it back on the agenda ASAP, without having to actually offer anything this time round. The vagueness of it is encapsulated in the phrases of "we can talk about that at the next GE where we will probably have policies on it".

None of the paries are offering devo max. the arguments aginst it being on the ballot at the time were reasonable - the SNP had won a mandate for a indy referendum, not one on devo max, which i suppose ties into the further devo proposals being given a mandate in the 2015 GE

Why couldn't the three union parties put together a further prospectus together collectively? By their logic, pooling and working together = Better proposals #amirite

I think this it what will end up happening

[Burma]

They will. It's a proposal that's been worked on just now. The 3 party pledge on further devolution will be delivered in the weeks leading up to the referendum.

I expect it will be the final nail in the separatists coffin.

Link:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/scottish-independence-three-main-parties-set-to-make-joint-pledge-guaranteeing-more-devolved-powers-to-scotland-9511310.html

A stunt that will be easily exposed. It will offer nothing in the way of certainty nor will it bean agreement on what further devolution will actually mean.

If YES are clever they could easily make great play of this and show it to be panic amongst the Unionists, not to mention that we will be treated to the sight of Scottish Labour signing pledges with the Tories.

[Lex]

Agreed. (Further) devolution will kill Nationalism stone dead.

It's the game changer they've been waiting to deliver for months. The nats on the other hand, have nothing left, they've played all their cards.

A lot of separatists will scream lies blah blah, but a joint 3 party pledge with the leaders signing it will get a lot of media attention and will certainly persuade a lot of undecided voters to vote no.

[Tio Pepe]

Yes that trap where only YES voters give insults? Trust me that ain't the case. I've been started on for having a YES sticker on, did that NO voter fall into the trap of NO voters being absolute rockets?

And no your example never showed anything, you show blind loyalty to a football club you support, you don't support them for any Pros or Cons that they might give you? That example was terrible, it is down to the NO camp to tell us why we are Better Together, what the positives are for staying in this shambles of a Union, how you can deny that is beyond me.

It's like saying a brand shouldn't try and improve and advertise, why their brand isn't better than other ones appearing, because they already have a large amount of consumers?

If someone insulted you for having a different opinion then they are clearly wrong. Doesn't mean you have to join in.

People can have a blind loyalty to their country too. Probably more so than to a football team. In this case pros and cons do not come into it either. Many will have tremendous loyalty to the UK.

If you took the time to read what was written you will see that I stated a campaign group must do just that. Individuals have no need to justify their position or their preference for the status quo. It is for those who wish them to change to make that case.

Shambles of a union? That sort of demonstrates you are not coming at this from a position of objectivity.

[Burma]

None of the paries are offering devo max. the arguments aginst it being on the ballot at the time were reasonable - the SNP had won a mandate for a indy referendum, not one on devo max, which i suppose ties into the further devo proposals being given a mandate in the 2015 GE

No they are not offering DevoMax, you are correct, and this is not what I stated either. But they now wish to get the idea, the notion, of devomax back on the agenda and back on the news, without actually conceptualising the idea. The arguments against it were sound I agree, but it woulx have made more political sense from a unionist viewpoint to actually have something to campaign FOR, as opposed to continually campaigning AGAINST.

[Burma]

It's the game changer they've been waiting to deliver for months. The nats on the other hand, have nothing left, they've played all their cards.

A lot of separatists will scream lies blah blah, but a joint 3 party pledge with the leaders signing it will get a lot of media attention and will certainly persuade a lot of undecided voters to vote no.

Every time the statusquo mob produce a "game changer" the YES vote goes up. Must be frustrating.

[banterman86]

No they are not offering DevoMax, you are correct, and this is not what I stated either. But they now wish to get the idea, the notion, of devomax back on the agenda and back on the news, without actually conceptualising the idea. .

They aren't offering devo max now either, and they have conceptualsied the idea - all parties have published what they would devolve and why.

[Burma]

They aren't offering devo max now either, and they have conceptualsied the idea - all parties have published what they would devolve and why.

And neither have I said they are offering devomax. But they are attempting to talk about it. Interesting though, why bother conceptualising something you are not prepared to offer.

What they have published are not policies which have been agreed, ratified and are now on offer. They are proposals on future policy by various commissions etc etc. There are no timescales and no guarantee that they will actually be offered at all.