Latest Polls and Latest Odds

[vikingTON]

2 hours ago, HibeeJibee said:

However it couldn't have been won without the British Commonwealth either. For starters from mid-1940 to mid-1941 we stood alone (with the Greeks for a time); we stopped and ultimately beat the Axis in North Africa, preventing them taking the canal and Middle East oilfields; our Arctic convoys were important to the Soviets when they were on the ropes; we represented half (likely more?) of the strategic bomber offensive against Germany; contributed heavily to invasions of Italy and north-western Europe; the atom bomb project; etc. etc.

Without this and the Battle of the Atlantic would a stronger unhindered Axis in the eastern front have been stopped then driven back by the USSR? Had we given in where could the Americans have invaded Europe from? Without us how much more of central/western Europe would've ended-up behind the Iron Curtain? Some sobering "what ifs" frankly.

This is utter nonsense. The reality is that the Soviet Union was a stronger military and economic power than Nazi Germany in 1941, irrespective of Britain's involvement in the war. The Nazi push into the Soviet Union was not stopped due to a fundamental lack of oil - it was stopped by the flaws of a massively extended logistics/supply train meeting the increasingly stubborn resistance of a superior military-economic unit. That's how the Moscow campaign and Stalingrad were decided - Rommel moving into Syria after winning at El Alamein would not have changed those campaigns one bit. Let's not forget that the Nazis actually captured oil-rich areas in the Caucasus in 1942, but they were, err, predictably sabotaged before capture and the Nazis had no credible logistical means to transport any oil back to their core anyway. And that's even by land rather than by sea. 

The British Empire was responsible for maintaining a general state of war after June 1940 rather than a peace that might (just might) have allowed the ramshackle Nazi state to organise its conquests to deliver an effective knockout blow in the east*. It also undoubtedly reduced the length of the war, probably by a couple of years. But there's no serious doubt among historians that once the German offensive in the east stalled out - as it was always likely to do against that superior economic-military power - then the issue would have been when not if the Red Army rolled them all the way back. Read Richard Evans' work to understand just how dysfunctional and inefficient the so-called Nazi economic sphere in Europe actually was in contributing to its war effort. The whole of French industry produced something like 100 tanks for the Nazis before the end of 1941. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

* The Nazis were interested in sheer plunder rather than rational economic integration. This was a crucial motivating factor in conquering Austria and Czechoslovakia without a general war; but once war broke out, literally none of the annexed territories made a significant economic contribution towards their war economy. 

Edited June 8 by vikingTON

[Fullerene]

Militarily it is incredibly difficult to invade an island.  There are countless examples of massive naval forces being used to Invade relatively small islands with small populations.

Hitler could never have invaded Britain.  The German Navy was pathetic compared to the Royal Navy (apart from the U-boats but I wouldn't suggest using them to invade anywhere).  Hitler did not want to defeat Britain.  He wanted Britain to withdraw from the war '- maybe keep its empire but leave him a free hand in Europe.

By comparison Hitler invaded Russia (and elsewhere in the East) for the same reason as Napoleon and others before him - lots of land for much less effort than trying to invaded Britsin or even Ireland.  That was the war he always wanted.

[dirty dingus]

26 minutes ago, Fullerene said:

Militarily it is incredibly difficult to invade an island.  There are countless examples of massive naval forces being used to Invade relatively small islands with small populations.

Hitler could never have invaded Britain.  The German Navy was pathetic compared to the Royal Navy (apart from the U-boats but I wouldn't suggest using them to invade anywhere).  Hitler did not want to defeat Britain.  He wanted Britain to withdraw from the war '- maybe keep its empire but leave him a free hand in Europe.

By comparison Hitler invaded Russia (and elsewhere in the East) for the same reason as Napoleon and others before him - lots of land for much less effort than trying to invaded Britsin or even Ireland.  That was the war he always wanted.

Could he not have just rolled his panzers through the Eurotunnel. According to all those patriot gammons who are always defending Oor Kultcha all you need to overthrow Blighty is a rubber dinghy and someone to point you in the direction of Dover.

[BFTD]

[Fullerene]

14 hours ago, GordonS said:

If there's one thing gammon twits need to learn about WW2, it's that it was won by an international anti-facist collaboration. 

The irony is that at the time people would have said Britain was different from the continent because it wasn't full of thugs roaming the streets terrorising everyone and attacking anyone who was different (often with government support).

Edited June 9 by Fullerene

[BFTD]

14 hours ago, GordonS said:

If there's one thing gammon twits need to learn about WW2, it's that it was won by an international anti-facist collaboration. 

Antifa won WWII?

Outrageous woke revisionist nonsense. You'll be claiming Hitler was a Nazi next.

[Granny Danger]

33 minutes ago, BFTD said:

Antifa won WWII?

Outrageous woke revisionist nonsense. You'll be claiming Hitler was a Nazi next.

Good folk on both sides…

[Oceanlineayr]

21 hours ago, Highlandmagar said:

Oh. I think if Hitler hadnt opened up a second front on Russia he would have invaded us. We were on the ropes at Dunkirk

Problem with that is the Kreigsmarine was not capable of any major amphibious operations against Britain.

They invaded Norway but that was against a country with a tiny airforce and a tiny navy. (The Kriegsmarine lost pretty much half of its own destroyers in Norwegian waters when Britain and France sent help to Norway). 

Not to mention the Germans were running about the Rhine getting barges and houseboats to use as invasion craft. 

[doulikefish]

It woz Tommy and Nigel that won it 

[BFTD]

So it Ze Germans or Russians had taken over Europe, we could've ended up an isolated backwater, terrified of a united Europe and obsessed with being invaded from the sea?

Certainly glad that never happened.

[Fullerene]

4 hours ago, Oceanlineayr said:

Problem with that is the Kreigsmarine was not capable of any major amphibious operations against Britain.

They invaded Norway but that was against a country with a tiny airforce and a tiny navy. (The Kriegsmarine lost pretty much half of its own destroyers in Norwegian waters when Britain and France sent help to Norway). 

Not to mention the Germans were running about the Rhine getting barges and houseboats to use as invasion craft. 

It is often forgotten that the Nazis' main weapon of attack was not the tank but the horse.  Similarly the Japanese captured Singapore because of their ability to move troops by push bike.

I blame Boris Johnson.

[ICTChris]

 

[ICTChris]

Scotland only poll klaxon

 

 

[TheScarf]

Voters defecting from a Nationalist party to a Tory-lite Unionist party need to be in nursing homes, or have 24 hour care.

Edited June 11 by TheScarf

[Wee Bully]

1 hour ago, ICTChris said:

Scotland only poll klaxon

 

 

Interesting that the “swing” is from September last year.  The gap is less than most recently as well. 

[MEADOWXI]

On 08/06/2024 at 19:59, Dunfermline Don said:

A lot is always made of the fact that after the fall of France. Britain stood alone against the Nazis (well apart from the rest of the Empire and troops from occupied nations that sought refuge in the UK).
 I think that causes a lot of people to think that we did more than the USA or USSR despite them contributing far more in terms of numbers. 

Didn't even win the Battle of Britain alone, the most successful RAF squadron of the battle was 303 Squadron, An all Polish squadron, and another Polish Squadron 302 were almost as good.

Polish Pilots and the Battle of Britain (historic-uk.com)

The Commander-in-Chief of Fighter Command, Air Chief Marshal Sir Hugh Dowding, was blunter in his assessment, ‘Had it not been for the magnificent work of the Polish squadrons and their unsurpassed gallantry, I hesitate to say that the outcome of battle would have been the same’. This assessment was echoed by the Secretary of State for the Air Force and indeed, during some of the most desperate points of the battle, the RAF had ‘only 350 pilots to scramble, of which nearly 100 were Poles’.

Yet at the end of the war Polish troops were not allowed to participate in the Allied Victory Parade so as not to aggravate Joseph Stalin. Brexiteers or not, we should all be grateful for the sacrifice made by so few for so many. Without the two squadrons of ‘plucky Poles’, it is eminently possible that there would neither be a Britain, nor an EU to vote out of.

[Dunfermline Don]

9 minutes ago, MEADOWXI said:

Didn't even win the Battle of Britain alone, the most successful RAF squadron of the battle was 303 Squadron, An all Polish squadron, and another Polish Squadron 302 were almost as good.

Polish Pilots and the Battle of Britain (historic-uk.com)

The Commander-in-Chief of Fighter Command, Air Chief Marshal Sir Hugh Dowding, was blunter in his assessment, ‘Had it not been for the magnificent work of the Polish squadrons and their unsurpassed gallantry, I hesitate to say that the outcome of battle would have been the same’. This assessment was echoed by the Secretary of State for the Air Force and indeed, during some of the most desperate points of the battle, the RAF had ‘only 350 pilots to scramble, of which nearly 100 were Poles’.

Yet at the end of the war Polish troops were not allowed to participate in the Allied Victory Parade so as not to aggravate Joseph Stalin. Brexiteers or not, we should all be grateful for the sacrifice made by so few for so many. Without the two squadrons of ‘plucky Poles’, it is eminently possible that there would neither be a Britain, nor an EU to vote out of.

Lots of Polish soldiers who escaped the Nazis were based in Scotland during the war. 
I know in Dunfermline they were barracked in the pavilion in the Glen and their experience from having experienced a Nazi attack was used to help set up defensive positions in the area to help with the defence of the dockyard at Rosyth in anticipation of any German attack. 

[effeffsee_the2nd]

1 hour ago, Wee Bully said:

Interesting that the “swing” is from September last year.  The gap is less than most recently as well. 

What does that mean in terms of seats though?

[HibeeJibee]

4 hours ago, MEADOWXI said:

Didn't even win the Battle of Britain alone, the most successful RAF squadron of the battle was 303 Squadron, An all Polish squadron, and another Polish Squadron 302 were almost as good.

Polish Pilots and the Battle of Britain (historic-uk.com)

Czechs also had 2 and Canadians had 1 alongside 44x RAF, 14x Auxiliary, 3x Coastal Command and 2x Fleet Air Arm some of which included foreign pilots - indeed the only surviving veteran is 104-year-old John Hemming from Eire; were 574 foreign beside 2,353 British:




Special mention to confusingly named No 247 (China British) Squadron RAF - who got transferred from Shetland to Plymouth halfway through and became the only Allied fighter squadron to contest the Battle of Britain using biplanes...

[Suspect Device]

 

 

 

 

Edited June 12 by Suspect Device