GeorgiosSamaras Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 You say you're not convinced of SNP conversion to social democratic politics, this implies that you want to vote for a party with social democratic policies. You then go on to say you will vote Labour, a party who recently supported Tory austerity cuts and wants to spend £100 billion renewing trident. A party who when they were last in office oversaw an increase in relative poverty, introduced crippling PFI initiatives for purely political reasons and deregulated the banking system in a way that assisted in creating a huge recession. Maybe you're a WUM, there's a few of them on P&B, but if you're 'genuine' maybe you can respond to the points I've made. Happy to respond mate. The vote you refer to regarding austerity cuts was not on austerity at all. I watched the debate, not one penny of public spending was cut. No Government can legislate for future Parliaments. It was a vote on the principle of reducing the deficit which unsurprisingly all the mainstream parties voted for. Labour said they'd do it mainly with tax rises and economic growth and yes, the Tories said they'd do it with the cuts you refer to. With respect to trident I agree it's a waste of money. In fact I'd like to see massive cuts to our (conventional) defence budget too but no party is offering that. The £100 bn is at the very top end of estimates though, over the lifetime of the weapons (25 years or so?) and spread across the UK. Even if you scrap it you don't get the funds to deliver social justice, even if I agree with the basic principle that £1 spent on it is too much. I actually think the last Labour Government did a lot of good. They made unprecedented progress in tackling child and pensioner poverty and the percentage of people in poverty decreased. PFI was introduced by the Conservatives in the mid 90s. True that Labour got some particularly shitty deals but given the state of the NHS facilities and schools in 1997 I can see why they went for the seemingly easy option of PFI. I hasten to add the NPDs that the SNP replaced PFIs with are PFIs in all but name. I agree that they should have done more to regulate the banks. Obviously you can't hold the last Government responsible for the recession but it might not have hit us so hard if they had a better regulatory system. Think the blame on that is shared though. Even under Charlie Kennedy when the Liberals were positioning themselves to the left of Blair's Government they never endorsed restrictions on the City, while Salmond was one of the strongest proponents of deregulation - remember him calling for Scotland to join an arc of prosperity? The important thing in 2015 is who is prepared to stand up to them, the only person I've seen even discuss it has been Miliband. I'm under no illusions about Labour, no party has a monopoly on wisdom and none of them represent my views entirely. However, I do think Labour represent the best hope of progressive Government in 2015. The less Labour MPs the less democratic legitimacy they have to form the next Government and the greater the chance of a Tory Government. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamaldo Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 My polling card arrived today. That just produces a air of calmness around me tbh. Knowing for sure that I'll be getting my vote on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Danger Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 Happy to respond mate. The vote you refer to regarding austerity cuts was not on austerity at all. I watched the debate, not one penny of public spending was cut. No Government can legislate for future Parliaments. It was a vote on the principle of reducing the deficit which unsurprisingly all the mainstream parties voted for. Labour said they'd do it mainly with tax rises and economic growth and yes, the Tories said they'd do it with the cuts you refer to. With respect to trident I agree it's a waste of money. In fact I'd like to see massive cuts to our (conventional) defence budget too but no party is offering that. The £100 bn is at the very top end of estimates though, over the lifetime of the weapons (25 years or so?) and spread across the UK. Even if you scrap it you don't get the funds to deliver social justice, even if I agree with the basic principle that £1 spent on it is too much. I actually think the last Labour Government did a lot of good. They made unprecedented progress in tackling child and pensioner poverty and the percentage of people in poverty decreased. PFI was introduced by the Conservatives in the mid 90s. True that Labour got some particularly shitty deals but given the state of the NHS facilities and schools in 1997 I can see why they went for the seemingly easy option of PFI. I hasten to add the NPDs that the SNP replaced PFIs with are PFIs in all but name. I agree that they should have done more to regulate the banks. Obviously you can't hold the last Government responsible for the recession but it might not have hit us so hard if they had a better regulatory system. Think the blame on that is shared though. Even under Charlie Kennedy when the Liberals were positioning themselves to the left of Blair's Government they never endorsed restrictions on the City, while Salmond was one of the strongest proponents of deregulation - remember him calling for Scotland to join an arc of prosperity? The important thing in 2015 is who is prepared to stand up to them, the only person I've seen even discuss it has been Miliband. I'm under no illusions about Labour, no party has a monopoly on wisdom and none of them represent my views entirely. However, I do think Labour represent the best hope of progressive Government in 2015. The less Labour MPs the less democratic legitimacy they have to form the next Government and the greater the chance of a Tory Government. Austerity - mainstream parties? The SNP is a mainstream party and will manage debt without the impact that Labour will inflict. The lack of Labour to offer a challenge to the Tories conventional wisdom shows how far they have gone. Trident - let's say it's £100 billion over 25 years over the whole of the UK; £400 million per year for 25 years in Scotland. Won't solve all the country's problems but will have a significant impact on one or more services. To say you are oppossed to the spend on Trident then seek to dismiss it sounds like bullshit TBH. PFI - Brown pursued PFI because it was electorally popular, seen to provide much needed facilities without it impacting on public debt. There were far better, more cost effective ways to provide these facilities but they would have added to the PSBR. So we (and it is us) get saddled with shitty debt to protect Labour's 'fiscal surety'. Deregulation - you are just glossing over this, no point in responding. You can't absolve politicians from their responsibility because of what others were saying at the time. Brown played a huge part in the recession that caused havoc and misery for millions of people in the UK. Your last point is absolute nonsense. Like it or not we have a FPTP system, a system that Labour voted to uphold in the last Parliament. Under that system any 'group', formal or informal, who command a majority in the Commons have the legitimacy to govern. I have posted previously that I have a bit of time for Miliband. I'm glad he won the leadership ahead of his Blairite brother. But I watched Sturgeon's Conference speech and thought if that was Labour leader then they would skoosh the election in Scotland. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob the tank Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 I'm glad you are Greek and can't vote in our election Georgios Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgiosSamaras Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 Austerity - mainstream parties? The SNP is a mainstream party and will manage debt without the impact that Labour will inflict. The lack of Labour to offer a challenge to the Tories conventional wisdom shows how far they have gone. Trident - let's say it's £100 billion over 25 years over the whole of the UK; £400 million per year for 25 years in Scotland. Won't solve all the country's problems but will have a significant impact on one or more services. To say you are oppossed to the spend on Trident then seek to dismiss it sounds like bullshit TBH. PFI - Brown pursued PFI because it was electorally popular, seen to provide much needed facilities without it impacting on public debt. There were far better, more cost effective ways to provide these facilities but they would have added to the PSBR. So we (and it is us) get saddled with shitty debt to protect Labour's 'fiscal surety'. Deregulation - you are just glossing over this, no point in responding. You can't absolve politicians from their responsibility because of what others were saying at the time. Brown played a huge part in the recession that caused havoc and misery for millions of people in the UK. Your last point is absolute nonsense. Like it or not we have a FPTP system, a system that Labour voted to uphold in the last Parliament. Under that system any 'group', formal or informal, who command a majority in the Commons have the legitimacy to govern. I have posted previously that I have a bit of time for Miliband. I'm glad he won the leadership ahead of his Blairite brother. But I watched Sturgeon's Conference speech and thought if that was Labour leader then they would skoosh the election in Scotland. All of the major parties (SNP included) have made clear that the SNP will not play any part in the next Government. They don't need to make real proposals to bring down the deficit because they'll never be in a position to do it. I wouldn't trust them to hold any party to account when they've not introduced a redistributive policy in 8 years. I'm against trident but I think it's importance is overplayed. Deregulation - context is important - the 'city' was booming and nobody was calling for tighter regulations. Brown should have led the way but he didn't, it was a mistake. I think he made up for it by largely protecting the most vulnerable during the financial crisis. I'm not sure they do. As you'll remember the SNP won a single more seat than Labour in 2007 and claimed that they had been democratically elected - because they were bold and had the legitimacy of getting the most votes and seats few questioned it. With Labour and the SNP both ruling out a coalition I'm not convinced a Labour minority Government could power through if the Tories came out on top. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roversforlife Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 There's a thread on it mate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sooky Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 CON - 37% (+1) LAB - 35% (+1) UKIP - 12% (-1) LDEM - 7% (-1) GRN - 5% (+1) Latest YouGov poll. Is this where we begin to see the return to the two main parties, in England at least? That percentage is higher than the Tories got in 2010 I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmothecat Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 When was the last time the Tories polled that high? Incredible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaleyJag157 Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 Question is does anyone think we'll ever see a majority government again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glasgow-sheep Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 CON - 37% (+1) LAB - 35% (+1) UKIP - 12% (-1) LDEM - 7% (-1) GRN - 5% (+1) Latest YouGov poll. Is this where we begin to see the return to the two main parties, in England at least? That percentage is higher than the Tories got in 2010 I think. For all the talk of multi party politics we will probably see labour and Tories squeeze the minor parties come may in such a tight contest. Thing is it probably doesn't change the electoral maths much and of course will be quite a different picture in Scotland where minor parties were squeezed by the snp/labour choice in 2011 and all but wiped out by the snp surge this time. We'll probably have less "others" in the next parliament than now with the sum of red and blue increasing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 YouGov has been polling higher for the Con/Lab vote (+70) than the rest of the pollsters for at least the past week. They're either onto something or are doing it wrong. Conducting the same poll with the same methods each day only confirms that their own results are reliable, it does nothing to establish their accuracy to actual voting intention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 Oh, and it's now less then five weeks until Britnat Labour and their lackeys in Scotland face the drubbing of a lifetime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnglishmanAbroad Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 What is the problem with you Scots? It's not as if anyone in the rest of the UK actively tries to piss you all off. Yet you appear to have a serious chip on your shoulder? Why? I posed a perfectly legitimate question here yet nobody answered it. Is it because nobody can? I am genuinely interested in finding out the answer so I shall ask again: What is the problem with you Scots? Do you really believe that the rest of the UK deliberately try to piss you all off? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 I posed a perfectly legitimate question here yet nobody answered it. Is it because nobody can? I am genuinely interested in finding out the answer so I shall ask again: What is the problem with you Scots? Do you really believe that the rest of the UK deliberately try to piss you all off? Nobody gives a flying f**k about you or your inane ramblings, champ. Particularly given that it's actually a football forum and you've joined to tone-troll a sub-forum. Swing and a miss then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SodjesSixteenIncher Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 Given some of the absolute dullards who have held court on P&B, popping up after a few days for strike two on a trolling attempt that was ignored completely, really has to go down as an absolute riddy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1320Lichtie Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 I posed a perfectly legitimate question here yet nobody answered it. Is it because nobody can? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnglishmanAbroad Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 I apologize if I came across in a bad way. I am not trying to be critical of anyone's viewpoints here. I would just like my original question answered so I can further my knowledge and understanding of this topic. Thus, can somebody please provide me with an answer to my question/s? ETA: Thank you in advance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnydun Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 I posed a perfectly legitimate question here yet nobody answered it. Is it because nobody can? I am genuinely interested in finding out the answer so I shall ask again: What is the problem with you Scots? Do you really believe that the rest of the UK deliberately try to piss you all off? Troll or not, I will answer your question.No we do not have a chip on our shoulder, nor do we care what the RUK think about us. We want a fairer society with less poverty, a safe NHS, Nuclear weapons out our country, etc etc..... Tell me you wouldn't vote for that if you could? I feel the Ruk now have an issue with us because the SNP will hold the balance of power in Westminster and the Ruk dont like it, even though we were begged, yes, begged to stay part of the Uk by the people that now dont like us having a voice. But hey thats democracy for you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 I apologize if I came across in a bad way. I am not trying to be critical of anyone's viewpoints here. I would just like my original question answered so I can further my knowledge and understanding of this topic. Thus, can somebody please provide me with an answer to my question/s? ETA: Thank you in advance. No; do one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baxter Parp Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 What is the problem with you Scots? Do you really believe that the rest of the UK deliberately try to piss you all off? We're fucked if we're going to be ruled by incompetent arseholes again. HTH. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.