Any lunatics still thinking Messi is the best?

[Dunning1874]

On 12/28/2016 at 09:50, Ya Bezzer! said:

If you think defenders of today are better than defenders of Maradona's era you are basically a loonie.

That's not really the point though - while the likes of Baresi, Beckenbauer, Passarella and whoever else you want to mention may have been as individuals better defenders than any defender playing today, this doesn't mean forwards have it easier.

Tactics have developed to the point that the game is far, far harder for attackers now than it ever has been in the past, even if no individual defenders are as good as they were in the past. Yes, Maradona got treatment from defenders far worse than anything Messi has ever had to face, but even accounting for that the difference in the time and space afforded to attackers simply means it is far, far more difficult for attacking players today than it was 25 years ago. The changes in tactical set up from teams as a whole - not necessarily better tactical awareness from individuals, but better organised XIs - limit the space and opportunities available to attackers, it's considerably more difficult to score now than ever before as a result, yet Messi & Ronaldo have absolutely smashed goalscoring records over a ridiculous number of seasons.

[Sx Drugz N Martin Jol]

Maradona was making players look non existent 30 years ago as well.

Has the standard of football massively improved though?

Yes players are more professional, fitter and stronger due to advancements in sports science etc but does that mean the standard of player has improved though? Fitter and stronger doesn't mean that they are better football players.

For example to look at Scottish and English national sides. Are they producing the same standard of football player that they were in the 60's,70's and 80's? They are producing better athletes but I don't necessarily think they are producing better football players.

It is a very subjective argument and very difficult to come up with a definitive answer. For me it's Maradona with Messi a close second. In terms of pure football ability they are light years ahead of Ronaldo for me as he is far to reliant on pace and power whereas boys like Messi and Maradona it's pure footballing ability.

But I am happy to admit it depends on what style of player you enjoy watching.

I agree with a lot in this statement.

Yes for me football has massively improved your average Joe would be a world beater back then, I read a post about the tactical aspect of football and how it's changed and made scoring goals a lot harder and Messi and Ronaldo do it week in week out.

I think it's a cultural thing in Scotland we've always been guilty of over looking more technically gifted young players for those who seem to be of a more Athletic player, tall, fast and powerful and for this our national team has suffered greatly and that's down to the pro youth set up we have nothing coming through.... the lad Burke was tipped to be Scotland's answer to Gareth Bale and for me he's the perfect example of what we are talking about, technically not great but a threat with his pace and power.

I think we should appreciate we get to watch Messi and Ronaldo so regularly as I think it'll be a long long time before we see anything close to these two.

[Blootoon87]

I know I'm probably being whooshed here, but clearly folk are aware Messi is the best ever?

[ayrmad]

2 hours ago, Dunning1874 said:

That's not really the point though - while the likes of Baresi, Beckenbauer, Passarella and whoever else you want to mention may have been as individuals better defenders than any defender playing today, this doesn't mean forwards have it easier.

Tactics have developed to the point that the game is far, far harder for attackers now than it ever has been in the past, even if no individual defenders are as good as they were in the past. Yes, Maradona got treatment from defenders far worse than anything Messi has ever had to face, but even accounting for that the difference in the time and space afforded to attackers simply means it is far, far more difficult for attacking players today than it was 25 years ago. The changes in tactical set up from teams as a whole - not necessarily better tactical awareness from individuals, but better organised XIs - limit the space and opportunities available to attackers, it's considerably more difficult to score now than ever before as a result, yet Messi & Ronaldo have absolutely smashed goalscoring records over a ridiculous number of seasons.

While all that might be true about most leagues(not convinced about Serie A for starters) Ronaldo & Messi are playing with teams full of players a level or 2 above the opposition most weeks, it's a bit like watching Celtic players scoring 30 or 40 goals here every season,cash has changed the whole dynamic of football.

FTR Baresi and Maldini conceded 23 goals in 196 games when they played in the same team together as centre halfs.

Edited December 29, 2016 by ayrmad

[8MileBU]

I know I'm probably being whooshed here, but clearly folk are aware Messi is the best ever?

Everyone with eyes, a brain and half a clue about football know this.

[8MileBU]

While all that might be true about most leagues(not convinced about Serie A for starters) Ronaldo & Messi are playing with teams full of players a level or 2 above the opposition most weeks, it's a bit like watching Celtic players scoring 30 or 40 goals here every season,cash has changed the whole dynamic of football.
FTR Baresi and Maldini conceded 23 goals in 196 games when they played in the same team together as centre halfs.

Just being pernickety, but Maldini was the left back. Costacurta partnered Baresi at centre back.

[ayrmad]

13 minutes ago, 8MileBU said:

 

Just being pernickety, but Maldini was the left back. Costacurta partnered Baresi at centre back.

 

That's why there's only 196 games, they played in the same AC Milan team loads of times.

I should have added for AC Milan in the previous post.

Edited December 29, 2016 by ayrmad

[lanky_ffc]

On 28/12/2016 at 15:48, palmy_cammy said:

If the criteria for GOAT is You Tube compilations then Ronaldinho is number one, followed by Matt Le Tissier.

Coulibaly has a decent YouTube reel of goals he's scored for Killie. Get him fired in at number 3 on your list.

[Ya Bezzer!]

11 hours ago, Dunning1874 said:

That's not really the point though - while the likes of Baresi, Beckenbauer, Passarella and whoever else you want to mention may have been as individuals better defenders than any defender playing today, this doesn't mean forwards have it easier.

Tactics have developed to the point that the game is far, far harder for attackers now than it ever has been in the past, even if no individual defenders are as good as they were in the past. Yes, Maradona got treatment from defenders far worse than anything Messi has ever had to face, but even accounting for that the difference in the time and space afforded to attackers simply means it is far, far more difficult for attacking players today than it was 25 years ago. The changes in tactical set up from teams as a whole - not necessarily better tactical awareness from individuals, but better organised XIs - limit the space and opportunities available to attackers, it's considerably more difficult to score now than ever before as a result, yet Messi & Ronaldo have absolutely smashed goalscoring records over a ridiculous number of seasons.

Well the history of the Premier League in England doesn't seem to show that it is "far, far harder" to score.  Between the early 90's and now the records show a consistant rise in the average number of goals scored.  The average has risen around 2.4 goals per game to around 2.80 per game.  

And while the best teams score roughly the same number of goals per season (round about 80), the poorest teams concede more goals than they did in the past (up from about mid 60's to high 70's and fairly often even the 80's) suggesting a general decline in quality.

 

[RandomGuy.]

I know I'm probably being whooshed here, but clearly folk are aware Messi is the best ever?

A lot of folk won't realise until he retires.

[djchapsticks]

On 28/12/2016 at 23:36, Dominique Malonga said:

There was a boy on my street we used to play football with who had that Haircut that was over ten years ago now, where has the time went...

Don't mean to make you feel worse mate but that was 2002, not 2006. That 'over 10 years' is nearly a decade and a half now.

[Dominique Malonga]

Don't mean to make you feel worse mate but that was 2002, not 2006. That 'over 10 years' is nearly a decade and a half now. [emoji20]

Aye f**k knows why I said over ten 2002 is my favourite World Cup due to my love for that Brazil side. I can still remember watching the England Brazil game before going to school. The less said about Brazil since 2006 onwards the better.

[RandomGuy.]

I loved the graphics for the 2002 WC. As in the bits that read out the teams name and lineups at the start of the match.

I've no idea why.

[1320Lichtie]

Aye f**k knows why I said over ten 2002 is my favourite World Cup due to my love for that Brazil side. I can still remember watching the England Brazil game before going to school. The less said about Brazil since 2006 onwards the better.

It's amazing, I'm 24 and to me Brazil are always going to be the number 1 national team, even if they've been shite in comparison for a while now. The amount of players they had, the my seemed so glamorous in comparison to other players and nations.

Bairns nowadays will think it's all about Spain and Germany.

[Sx Drugz N Martin Jol]

Need to agree to a point, I've seen a few world class Brazilians........ seen a few decent players anaw [emoji14] the Spanish team that dominated was exceptional. Growing up Brazil always had a centre forward who was world class but the decline has been very disappointing

[SweeperDee]

Anyone wonder why the Brazilian decline has been so prominent? Their league has never been the strongest so domestic issues can't be to blame.

[Dominique Malonga]

It's amazing, I'm 24 and to me Brazil are always going to be the number 1 national team, even if they've been shite in comparison for a while now. The amount of players they had, the my seemed so glamorous in comparison to other players and nations.

Bairns nowadays will think it's all about Spain and Germany.

Same here. There was part of me that was totally gutted after they were destroyed by Germany but there was also part of me that was glad. A shadow of their former selves.

[Peppino Impastato]

Sweeper i read an article or two by Tim vickery years ago apparently the big concern is they don't produce cultured central midfielder anymore where as this used to be the bedrock of their team.  The theory was that fullbacks became so attacking cm had to become like extra cbs so you got gilberto silva instead of didi or vava.   Don't know much more than that,  they still have an incredible squad and we're much better than that Germany game just badly managed. 

 

Also brailian players typically love to party and tend to tail off about 28 because of that

[54_and_counting]

On 29/12/2016 at 21:07, Dunning1874 said:

That's not really the point though - while the likes of Baresi, Beckenbauer, Passarella and whoever else you want to mention may have been as individuals better defenders than any defender playing today, this doesn't mean forwards have it easier.

Tactics have developed to the point that the game is far, far harder for attackers now than it ever has been in the past, even if no individual defenders are as good as they were in the past. Yes, Maradona got treatment from defenders far worse than anything Messi has ever had to face, but even accounting for that the difference in the time and space afforded to attackers simply means it is far, far more difficult for attacking players today than it was 25 years ago. The changes in tactical set up from teams as a whole - not necessarily better tactical awareness from individuals, but better organised XIs - limit the space and opportunities available to attackers, it's considerably more difficult to score now than ever before as a result, yet Messi & Ronaldo have absolutely smashed goalscoring records over a ridiculous number of seasons.

got to disagree mate, the game now is based towards the attacking side of things, aside from grappling at corners, defenders are basically outlawed from doing pretty much anything now to the point where an attacker can throw his leg into a defender to initiate contact and get the foul

if i was a defender id much rather play 30 years ago than now given how the game has changed, its definitely better for us as a spectacle (most of the time) though

[54_and_counting]

9 hours ago, SweeperDee said:

Anyone wonder why the Brazilian decline has been so prominent? Their league has never been the strongest so domestic issues can't be to blame.

has it really been a decline though, people think of brazil as either the pele era or the first ronaldo side, but since 1974 when the pele era was effectively over, germany have won the WC more times, with italy and argentina winning it the same amount of times as brazil