Celtic progressing & Rangers regressing.

[forever_blue]

Ffs no another one, in my first post I said I wouldn't comment on the match day experience as I hadn't seen Celtic play personally. Then Tedi the total moron he is started bitching about nothing so I said if I had included a match day experience I would have much more to say about the downsides of rangers. What part of this don't you all understand

attacking refs , throwing coins and lighters, glorifying the ira. its all part of ra selik old firm match day expierience

[Wilky1878]

attacking refs , throwing coins and lighters, glorifying the ira. its all part of ra selik old firm match day expierience

What part of I wasn't saying nothing about match day experience cause I haven't seen Celtic personally is so hard to understand? Too much smack before your protests I think...

[youngsy]

Ffs no another one, in my first post I said I wouldn't comment on the match day experience as I hadn't seen Celtic play personally. Then Tedi the total moron he is started bitching about nothing so I said if I had included a match day experience I would have much more to say about the downsides of rangers. What part of this don't you all understand

Oh right, so you're expecting to voice your opinion without any sort of rebuttal. I personally understand what you're trying to say but you will get an opinion that may not sit too well with you. Here's the easy and correct answer, just so you'll understand; both clubs support have fans that are as bad as each other, no point scoring just the actual fact of the matter. Hope that isn't too hard for you to understand. Edit too add, it seems that when someone doesn't meet with your opinion you then come out with the personal abuse, why is that?

[GeorgiosSamaras]

I think explicit bigotry (i.e attacking someone for being a protestant) is not very prevalent within the Celtic support. If you speak to Celtic fans, read their facebook pages or go on their forums you are far more likely to hear and see anti catholic comments than you are anti protestant ones. If you equate Irish Republicanism with Catholicism or Orangeism with Protestantism you'll likely disagree with that point, but that debate is for another day.

Ultimately both clubs recruit fans from similar social and economic societal backgrounds, and to some extent it is inevitable that the negative aspects of that society will be reflected within each support. I think because Rangers are almost exclusively a West of Scotland/North of Ireland team, you could argue that they have a worse problem with things like neds and troublemakers. As shown when the Oldco travelled just about anywhere. Celtic, while not perfect, are a more inclusive club. We have fans across the world and even in our Scotland our support is far more diverse. As a team we have never discriminated on the basis of race or religion and I think that has seeped into the culture of the club. Whereas Sevco have arguably went further than Rangers ever did in appealing to a jingoistic, far right sense of Britishness. It appeals to their core support but does little to make people from a different background feel welcome. For as long as that is the case I think they will always lag behind the rest of not only Scottish football, but European football.

[youngsy]

I think explicit bigotry (i.e attacking someone for being a protestant) is not very prevalent within the Celtic support. If you speak to Celtic fans, read their facebook pages or go on their forums you are far more likely to hear and see anti catholic comments than you are anti protestant ones. If you equate Irish Republicanism with Catholicism or Orangeism with Protestantism you'll likely disagree with that point, but that debate is for another day.

Ultimately both clubs recruit fans from similar social and economic societal backgrounds, and to some extent it is inevitable that the negative aspects of that society will be reflected within each support. I think because Rangers are almost exclusively a West of Scotland/North of Ireland team, you could argue that they have a worse problem with things like neds and troublemakers. As shown when the Oldco travelled just about anywhere. Celtic, while not perfect, are a more inclusive club. We have fans across the world and even in our Scotland our support is far more diverse. As a team we have never discriminated on the basis of race or religion and I think that has seeped into the culture of the club. Whereas Sevco have arguably went further than Rangers ever did in appealing to a jingoistic, far right sense of Britishness. It appeals to their core support but does little to make people from a different background feel welcome. For as long as that is the case I think they will always lag behind the rest of not only Scottish football, but European football.

I would give your post a bit more attention if you demonstrated enough maturity to leave out the sevco nonsense as for the life of me i can't see a club called sevco in any league under the FIFA umbrella.

[forever_blue]

I think explicit bigotry (i.e attacking someone for being a protestant) is not very prevalent within the Celtic support. If you speak to Celtic fans, read their facebook pages or go on their forums you are far more likely to hear and see anti catholic comments than you are anti protestant ones. If you equate Irish Republicanism with Catholicism or Orangeism with Protestantism you'll likely disagree with that point, but that debate is for another day.

Ultimately both clubs recruit fans from similar social and economic societal backgrounds, and to some extent it is inevitable that the negative aspects of that society will be reflected within each support. I think because Rangers are almost exclusively a West of Scotland/North of Ireland team, you could argue that they have a worse problem with things like neds and troublemakers. As shown when the Oldco travelled just about anywhere. Celtic, while not perfect, are a more inclusive club. We have fans across the world and even in our Scotland our support is far more diverse. As a team we have never discriminated on the basis of race or religion and I think that has seeped into the culture of the club. Whereas Sevco have arguably went further than Rangers ever did in appealing to a jingoistic, far right sense of Britishness. It appeals to their core support but does little to make people from a different background feel welcome. For as long as that is the case I think they will always lag behind the rest of not only Scottish football, but European football.

So much wrong in one post,the fact of reading celtic pages and you will see more anti catholic posts than anti Protestant ones is to put it simply utter shite. Also you are right Irish republicanism does not specifically make you a catholic but there is no denial that the vast majority of those in the IRA and it's supporters came from a catholic background and upbringing, also the IRA does not represent all of Irish republicans of which their are no doubt peacefull supporters, and vice versa with the with those on the loyalist side. Then there is the fact that you state orangeism does not equate to Protestantism , eh aye it does mate considering the fact to be in the orange order you have to be a Protestant... Then comes the whole romantic shite that celtic were all inclusive etc a load of shite summed up simply by the fact your greatest ever manager was giving the job of selling pools rather than on the board based on the fact of his religion. And also are you from Glasgow I have seen just as many neds, junkies and general arseholes regardless of it being a rangers or celtic shirt they are wearing .

[dorlomin]

I think explicit bigotry (i.e attacking someone for being a protestant)

Its not about religious bigotry. Religion is just a way of identifying peoples "ethnic" identity. Whether they think of themselves as loyalist British of ethnically Irish.

You see zero religious iconography at old firm matches but lots of nationalistic ones.

What does that tell you about whether it is a religious or ethno-nationalist divide?

[Wilky1878]

Oh right, so you're expecting to voice your opinion without any sort of rebuttal. I personally understand what you're trying to say but you will get an opinion that may not sit too well with you. Here's the easy and correct answer, just so you'll understand; both clubs support have fans that are as bad as each other, no point scoring just the actual fact of the matter. Hope that isn't too hard for you to understand. Edit too add, it seems that when someone doesn't meet with your opinion you then come out with the personal abuse, why is that?

So pointing out the flaws in your reply invites personal abuse?

You were the one that introduced OF games.

Do one you utter clown.

:lol::lol:

Personal abuse? I called Tedi a moron which generally seems the case most times I see him post. That's not even much abuse. I explained all my points and my basis on posting is through what I have personally seen and said on numerous occasions that I'm pretty sure it probably isn't the same as a whole but rangers fans don't seem to like this. No wonder I think the majority of you are c***s.

[shiltrum]

When comparing the two supporter groups how in gods green earth is it "whattabooter" to discuss one of them?

Are you just shouting "Whitabootery" because you think it means "stop talking about Celtic"?

NO!!! There will always be people who when it comes down to a discussion about both clubs old and NEW the tendency is to point to the others failings try to deflect attention away from the team they support and also gives the cretins a chance to denigrate the other club and their supporters despite there being clear evidence that their club and their support more often than others are guilty of acting like a bunch of idiots and in my opinion is a clear case of whitabootery.

[dorlomin]

NO!!! There will always be people who when it comes down to a discussion about both clubs old and NEW the tendency is to point to the others failings try to deflect attention away from the team they support

So in your tiny little brain, when an OP says Rangers are worse than Celtic, any attempt to demonstrate the OP is wrong is "whitabootery".

Does your school let you use pens or are you still writing with crayons?

[williemillersmoustache]

A bit weird, but worth persevering with. Remarkable how little has changed

[hirop]

I simply stopped following rangers because of the dominant ethos of the fans, it became apparent to me (somewhat later than I accept it should have) that you are either with them or against them, there is no middle-ground. I hear no dissenting voices, there is no other way, there is no moderating voices. There is no room for me. There is a highly-stupid political identity, coated in ancient religious bile - all so far removed from a normal day in modern Scottish life it's off the friggen scale - and that is accepted as how you 'support rangers.' The casualness that hateful terms and name calling - most derogatory relics of Irish politics, both ancient and more recent - is so embarrassing, and the abject lack of awareness of that is horrific. The debate is still largely focused not where it should be - it's not about why or not such terms and songs have a place in vocal support of a football team, rather a debate which is a basic misplaced straw-man about where the subjective lines of sectarian chanting lies.

Put simply, my father never wore a sash, so I ain't going to sing about what he never wore. I definitely would not be celebrating being born under a union jack, I won't sing GSTQ (as I believe with every fibre of my being in an independant scotland). I really wouldn't know why I would have to follow follow a Glasgow football team "up the 'falls", never mind onto "derry's walls" and I'm not sure why after Dundee and Hamilton, Dublin is such a big deal to warrant a mention - as it's hardly a hotbed of football? I won't be mixing in any chants that want to wax on in a fairly aggressive and disparaging manner about another person's religion or that religions head of faith - being a committed atheist allows me point and laugh at a man's chosen sky fairy - but I'm not seeing that as a basis to say f**k this or that.

You really could go on and on. And if I signed up to a rangers forum and voiced this, I would be told I am "rheeking" or a "timposter". I simply have no place, and as born and bread citizen of Scotland, brought up in Glasgow I think I should be able to fit into either of the two predominant football identifies without standing out like a sore thumb. Maybe I will go back the day the sash gets whistled down in favor of a song bout a rival with at least some modicum of whit about it, a or maybe a positive song about rangers winning a football match.

I could, with not too much effort, take apart Celtic. But I long ago decided that Celtic fans can be for and stand for whatever they want - it's up to Celtic fans to sort out themselves. My focus was Ranges because that's who I grew up supporting, and I have some absolutely unreal memories inside football stadiums all over Scotland - but I consider myself chased. Being back living in Glasgow after 20 years working all over the UK really made it clear to me this is a football club nowhere near ready to move on and form a positive modern identity relative to it's surroundings.

Is it worse than it was.....has it regressed....I'd say yes and no. Nothing is worse than having a riot on Hampden on live TV on cup final day. I thought there was positive strides toward the end of Murray's era. Although this was pretty much wrapped up in an acknowledgement that banging on about FTP harmed the football's clubs commercial activity, and with Uefa being more wiling to issue fines. That should not be the best motivation, but atleast something for any moderate voices to work with. It should have been the conduit to leaving the battle hymns behind. There has been a regression since then, the siege mentality and the also perhaps the independence debate have functioned to amplify everything that should have died out.

[forever_blue]

A bit weird, but worth persevering with. Remarkable how little has changed

The celtic fan who was the chairman of some supporters club in the pub at the start and jock stein towards the end both mentioned the phrase "we are the people" multiple times .

[Half Rice Half Chips]

I simply stopped following rangers because of the dominant ethos of the fans, it became apparent to me (somewhat later than I accept it should have) that you are either with them or against them, there is no middle-ground. I hear no dissenting voices, there is no other way, there is no moderating voices. There is no room for me. There is a highly-stupid political identity, coated in ancient religious bile - all so far removed from a normal day in modern Scottish life it's off the friggen scale - and that is accepted as how you 'support rangers.' The casualness that hateful terms and name calling - most derogatory relics of Irish politics, both ancient and more recent - is so embarrassing, and the abject lack of awareness of that is horrific. The debate is still largely focused not where it should be - it's not about why or not such terms and songs have a place in vocal support of a football team, rather a debate which is a basic misplaced straw-man about where the subjective lines of sectarian chanting lies.

Put simply, my father never wore a sash, so I ain't going to sing about what he never wore. I definitely would not be celebrating being born under a union jack, I won't sing GSTQ (as I believe with every fibre of my being in an independant scotland). I really wouldn't know why I would have to follow follow a Glasgow football team "up the 'falls", never mind onto "derry's walls" and I'm not sure why after Dundee and Hamilton, Dublin is such a big deal to warrant a mention - as it's hardly a hotbed of football? I won't be mixing in any chants that want to wax on in a fairly aggressive and disparaging manner about another person's religion or that religions head of faith - being a committed atheist allows me point and laugh at a man's chosen sky fairy - but I'm not seeing that as a basis to say f**k this or that.

You really could go on and on. And if I signed up to a rangers forum and voiced this, I would be told I am "rheeking" or a "timposter". I simply have no place, and as born and bread citizen of Scotland, brought up in Glasgow I think I should be able to fit into either of the two predominant football identifies without standing out like a sore thumb. Maybe I will go back the day the sash gets whistled down in favor of a song bout a rival with at least some modicum of whit about it, a or maybe a positive song about rangers winning a football match.

I could, with not too much effort, take apart Celtic. But I long ago decided that Celtic fans can be for and stand for whatever they want - it's up to Celtic fans to sort out themselves. My focus was Ranges because that's who I grew up supporting, and I have some absolutely unreal memories inside football stadiums all over Scotland - but I consider myself chased. Being back living in Glasgow after 20 years working all over the UK really made it clear to me this is a football club nowhere near ready to move on and form a positive modern identity relative to it's surroundings.

Is it worse than it was.....has it regressed....I'd say yes and no. Nothing is worse than having a riot on Hampden on live TV on cup final day. I thought there was positive strides toward the end of Murray's era. Although this was pretty much wrapped up in an acknowledgement that banging on about FTP harmed the football's clubs commercial activity, and with Uefa being more wiling to issue fines. That should not be the best motivation, but atleast something for any moderate voices to work with. It should have been the conduit to leaving the battle hymns behind. There has been a regression since then, the siege mentality and the also perhaps the independence debate have functioned to amplify everything that should have died out.

Outstanding post. Sums up the mindset of a huge proportion of rangers fans. A far right Brit nat ethno-religious supremacist group who use a football club as a cover. Hopefully more decent fans will have a similar road to Damascus conversion.

[williemillersmoustache]

The celtic fan who was the chairman of some supporters club in the pub at the start and jock stein towards the end both mentioned the phrase "we are the people" multiple times .

I particularly enjoyed Willie Waddell laughing at all the battered wives after a rangers defeat.

[forever_blue]

I particularly enjoyed Willie Waddell laughing at all the battered wives after a rangers defeat.

Or the irony of the wee author who whilst trying to point out the bigotry amongst rangers fans and done so by regularly labelling and bad mouthing the whole Protestant population instead

[shiltrum]

So in your tiny little brain, when an OP says Rangers are worse than Celtic, any attempt to demonstrate the OP is wrong is "whitabootery".

Does your school let you use pens or are you still writing with crayons?

Well that depends on how he approaches an answer if he tries to show both set of fans have an element of crackpots then people may agree with the point he is trying to put across then you have the other who just goes for it and points out what he sees as wrong with all of his anger directed at one side then it just comes across as whitabootery. No need for pens or crayons in the digital age although the pen is mightier than the sword there is also no need to stoop to personal insults if you don't agree, we are all allowed to express an opinion.

[dorlomin]

Well that depends on how he approaches an answer if he tries to show both set of fans have an element of crackpots then people may agree with the point he is trying to put across then you have the other who just goes for it and points out what he sees as wrong with all of his anger directed at one side then it just comes across as whitabootery.

That is one long sentence. And not even a coma to break it up.

It just reeks of incoherent seethe.

[Quitongo's Left Peg]

I simply stopped following rangers because of the dominant ethos of the fans, it became apparent to me (somewhat later than I accept it should have) that you are either with them or against them, there is no middle-ground. I hear no dissenting voices, there is no other way, there is no moderating voices. There is no room for me. There is a highly-stupid political identity, coated in ancient religious bile - all so far removed from a normal day in modern Scottish life it's off the friggen scale - and that is accepted as how you 'support rangers.' The casualness that hateful terms and name calling - most derogatory relics of Irish politics, both ancient and more recent - is so embarrassing, and the abject lack of awareness of that is horrific. The debate is still largely focused not where it should be - it's not about why or not such terms and songs have a place in vocal support of a football team, rather a debate which is a basic misplaced straw-man about where the subjective lines of sectarian chanting lies.

Put simply, my father never wore a sash, so I ain't going to sing about what he never wore. I definitely would not be celebrating being born under a union jack, I won't sing GSTQ (as I believe with every fibre of my being in an independant scotland). I really wouldn't know why I would have to follow follow a Glasgow football team "up the 'falls", never mind onto "derry's walls" and I'm not sure why after Dundee and Hamilton, Dublin is such a big deal to warrant a mention - as it's hardly a hotbed of football? I won't be mixing in any chants that want to wax on in a fairly aggressive and disparaging manner about another person's religion or that religions head of faith - being a committed atheist allows me point and laugh at a man's chosen sky fairy - but I'm not seeing that as a basis to say f**k this or that.

You really could go on and on. And if I signed up to a rangers forum and voiced this, I would be told I am "rheeking" or a "timposter". I simply have no place, and as born and bread citizen of Scotland, brought up in Glasgow I think I should be able to fit into either of the two predominant football identifies without standing out like a sore thumb. Maybe I will go back the day the sash gets whistled down in favor of a song bout a rival with at least some modicum of whit about it, a or maybe a positive song about rangers winning a football match.

I could, with not too much effort, take apart Celtic. But I long ago decided that Celtic fans can be for and stand for whatever they want - it's up to Celtic fans to sort out themselves. My focus was Ranges because that's who I grew up supporting, and I have some absolutely unreal memories inside football stadiums all over Scotland - but I consider myself chased. Being back living in Glasgow after 20 years working all over the UK really made it clear to me this is a football club nowhere near ready to move on and form a positive modern identity relative to it's surroundings.

Is it worse than it was.....has it regressed....I'd say yes and no. Nothing is worse than having a riot on Hampden on live TV on cup final day. I thought there was positive strides toward the end of Murray's era. Although this was pretty much wrapped up in an acknowledgement that banging on about FTP harmed the football's clubs commercial activity, and with Uefa being more wiling to issue fines. That should not be the best motivation, but atleast something for any moderate voices to work with. It should have been the conduit to leaving the battle hymns behind. There has been a regression since then, the siege mentality and the also perhaps the independence debate have functioned to amplify everything that should have died out.

Fantastic post.

Outstanding post. Sums up the mindset of a huge proportion of rangers fans. A far right Brit nat ethno-religious supremacist group who use a football club as a cover. Hopefully more decent fans will have a similar road to Damascus conversion.

This is partly where my assertion was founded. Things like the poppy have been hijacked by far-right organisations and right-wing media outlets to no longer be all about fallen soldiers, but to be a symbol of "Britishness" and to further entrench the "with us our against us" mentality. Travelling to the Ibrox cup game, lots of supporters were wearing Rangers scarves with the poppy as part of the livery. What has that got to do with remembering fallen soldiers and helping those suffering with the ailments caused by war? Did the guy selling these outside the SPT station donate his profits to the Royal British Legion? I highly doubt it.

I wear a white poppy, not as an insult to fallen soldiers, but to challenge the idea that war is necessary. On the tube I was verbally abused for this and called a "Muslim lover", then later spat at as someone commented that they "thought all Killie fans were mini-**** and not f*****s". So my sincerest apologies to all Rangers fans who seemingly got upset by my assertion based on events this season.

[Quitongo's Left Peg]

Rangers fans with a poppy on their scarves = pure evil

Ignored completely what I said. Standard.