Celtic progressing & Rangers regressing.

[killienick]

Interesting debate around what is and what isn't offensive. Surely it's just your own POV? If someone tells you that they find a word offensive when directed at them then you shouldn't use it after that. If you use a word, whatever it is, after someone tells you they understand it to be bigoted then it surely becomes bigoted? You have deliberately used a word someone has specifically told you that they find offensive in the knowledge that it will offend them.

Fans of just about every team in Scotland refer to Rangers fans as H*ns and Celtic fans as T*ms. I genuinely don't think any offence is meant by either term whilst also not quite being a term of affection either.

However, when Celtic fans use the word H*ns to represent my team, Killie, there is for me no other reason than bigotry.

Ayrshire has lots of Orange lodges and the town of Kilmarnock itself is probably predominantly Rangers supporting. However, Killie fans hate Rangers and Celtic equally. Deciding to call Killie fans H*ns can only be a reference to Ayshire's predominant religion as there is absolutely no Loyalist leanings at Killie at all. (at this point someone always pretends that we sing B**** boys and F***** when it's Killie boys and Ayr blood). It's an excuse to air bigoted views in my opinion.

Just to even things up here, as a Catholic of Irish origin I am also hugely offended by the F word or the T word or just about any other word designed to give offence.

[forever_blue]

Interesting debate around what is and what isn't offensive. Surely it's just your own POV? If someone tells you that they find a word offensive when directed at them then you shouldn't use it after that. If you use a word, whatever it is, after someone tells you they understand it to be bigoted then it surely becomes bigoted? You have deliberately used a word someone has specifically told you that they find offensive in the knowledge that it will offend them.

Fans of just about every team in Scotland refer to Rangers fans as H*ns and Celtic fans as T*ms. I genuinely don't think any offence is meant by either term whilst also not quite being a term of affection either.

However, when Celtic fans use the word H*ns to represent my team, Killie, there is for me no other reason than bigotry.

Ayrshire has lots of Orange lodges and the town of Kilmarnock itself is probably predominantly Rangers supporting. However, Killie fans hate Rangers and Celtic equally. Deciding to call Killie fans H*ns can only be a reference to Ayshire's predominant religion as there is absolutely no Loyalist leanings at Killie at all. (at this point someone always pretends that we sing B**** boys and F***** when it's Killie boys and Ayr blood). It's an excuse to air bigoted views in my opinion.

Just to even things up here, as a Catholic of Irish origin I am also hugely offended by the F word or the T word or just about any other word designed to give offence.

spot on post

[forever_blue]

An orange order parade,has nothing to do with football,but a lot of the people following wear rangers tops.

I know you never said it was illegal, you said the GB were pro irish republican, so their use of the H word must be sectarian.

Why don't you answer my question?

you have just furthered my point, these marches, the politics and the songs,chants and terms intertwine with rangers and celtic rivalry wether you like it or not, surely you cant deny that. also the reasons I am not answering your,question is because it is stupid and irrelevant.

[bennett]

An Irish republican march has nothing to do with Celtic.

Ok if you think it's irrelevant, answer this one. If I called wrk a H*** would it be sectarian.

Norman thinks that most things are sectarian, so probably.

Are you still greeting about greenyins and bigoted search engines?

[flyingrodent]

Remember how you never used to hear about how Rangers had the highest attendances in the land, until they went bankrupt and had to be let into the bottom tier?

Remember how you never used to hear about how clubs and companies are wholly separate entities, until they went bankrupt and had to be let into the bottom tier? The idea that a club could survive liquidation would've seemed insane, back before they went bankrupt and had to be let into the bottom tier.

Remember how you never used to hear about how They Don't Do Walking Away, until they went bankrupt and had to be let into the bottom tier?

Now. Do you remember how you never used to hear anything at all about how the word "Hvn" meant "Protestant", until they went bankrupt and had to be let into the bottom tier?

Regardless of whether you think it's horrible Old Firm bigotry or a lovely bit o' the craic, I'll let you draw your own conclusions, there.

[bennett]

Greenyins making things up to suit their agendas shocker.....

[flyingrodent]

Actually...you just made that up.

Your own club banned the word in 2001 due to numerous complaints from Rangers fans and other bodies.

'It's a word that can cause offence and at Celtic we don't want to be offending anyone, so we are asking that people who have a problem with this look at our social charter and other movements we are involved with'

Did Celtic say that "Hvn" meant "Protestant"? If they didn't, then why say that I "made it up"?

I see you're saying that someone at Parkhead acknowledged it "can cause offence" and banned the word, but I don't see anyone at Celtic saying that it means "Protestant", or that it's actively sectarian*. If anything, the fact that fans of most Scottish teams whose supporters profess no religious affiliation at all use the term to describe Rangers fans as a matter of course, absolutely refutes the idea and renders it hilarious.

Although, I will acknowledge that you're correct, in that there was always a slender section of your support who were butthurt about the word, for mad tactical reasons. I just note that they're louder now than they used to be, back before you went bankrupt and had to be let into the bottom tier..

*As I always note, because you always deliberately pretend not to understand it, "Hvn" is sectarian if used in association with the commission of a criminal offence such as assault or vandalism, much as "gay" would be homophobic or "Chinese" or "Burkina Fasan" would be racist.

[flyingrodent]

Oh they just banned it because Rangers fans complained about it meaning Rangers fan, honestly try and think things through before typing shite.

You precious little flower, you. Celtic FC go out of their way to ask supporters not to say derogatory things that upset you and when the fans don't obey, you're off tear-arsing around the internet, trying desperately to prove all manner of utterly ridiculous and unsupported conjectures.

There, there. You gave it a good bash and it's not your fault that almost nobody except for your fellow Rangers fans is leaping aboard your little comedy bandwagon.

[flyingrodent]

This is P & B, we are Rangers fans, nobody ever agrees with us, does not mean we are not 100% spot on...in this I am 100% spot on, you keep on apologising for your fellow bigots though.

You wee gem you, you keep fighting the good fight, tiger.

If you can find two P&B posters who a) aren't Rangers fans and b) aren't Rangers fans pretending to support e.g. East Stirling, who think I have any truck with bigotry or who think that I'm overtly indulging in apologism for bigotry, and continue to think that after I've replied just once, then I'll concede the point with no contest.

Edit: Sudden Vicky the Viking accounts probably don't count.

[flyingrodent]

Oh I am perfectly able to judge you for myself...I do not need the gallery to confirm my accurate points.

I hear you kiddo. You go get those theoretically anti-Protestant bigots, Judge Tedi.

[flyingrodent]

To be fair, I do not really believe those thousands of celtic fans who sings 'go home you ****' at Rangers fans (and killie fans and motherwell fans and hearts fans and the police) are all raging bigots, they are just 90 minute bigots, most a probably decent guys...the ones who sing it at these republican marches however are every bit as bigoted as Rangers fans who sing similar songs in similar out dated parades.

[shiltrum]

So greenyin is okay, then currant bun must also be acceptable

Whit aboot sticky bun?

[Vanderlei]

[shiltrum]

H*n is a derogatory term for rangers fans, and has been extended to encompass the so-called "PUL" (Protestant Unionist Loyalist) community in Scotland and Northern Ireland. It has also been used perjoratively to describe fans of Scottish football clubs that have traditionally (rightly or wrongly) been seen to have loyalist-leanings, such as Hearts, Kilmarnock and Motherwell. In many cases, it could be argued that the use of the term against supporters of these teams is intended not so much as a sectarian slur, but rather as a jibe that rangers are in fact their "big team", hence the term "mini-h*n".

It cannot be said that the term purely means "Protestant", as the term is never used to describe, say, fans of Aberdeen, even though the overwhelming majority of Aberdeen fans would be, nominally at least, Protestant. That is because Aberdeen fans are not associated with loyalism. That is not to say, however, that there aren't people who use the term to describe all Protestants, although thankfully I've rarely if ever heard the term used in that all-encompassing context.

The example of republicans in Glasgow using the term to describe police can, I think, be ascribed to the notion that the police are seen (again, rightly or wrongly) as agents of the crown acting in the interests of unionism/loyalism, with the implied assumption that most are rangers fans (which is obviously ridiculous as there would certainly be large numbers of the police force who are Catholic, celtic fans, yes voters etc.).

Good post sums it up IMHO. I have used the term in the but never to describe people as being Protestant nothing to do with their religion but as you suggest to describe Rangers fans in general (although some may well do that) it has more to do with their peripatetic behaviour.

[bennett]

Whit aboot sticky bun?

Depends on the connection with Rangers I suppose.

Greenyins ... The ones who play in green.

You can explain "sticky buns".

[shiltrum]

Interesting debate around what is and what isn't offensive. Surely it's just your own POV? If someone tells you that they find a word offensive when directed at them then you shouldn't use it after that. If you use a word, whatever it is, after someone tells you they understand it to be bigoted then it surely becomes bigoted? You have deliberately used a word someone has specifically told you that they find offensive in the knowledge that it will offend them.

Fans of just about every team in Scotland refer to Rangers fans as H*ns and Celtic fans as T*ms. I genuinely don't think any offence is meant by either term whilst also not quite being a term of affection either.

However, when Celtic fans use the word H*ns to represent my team, Killie, there is for me no other reason than bigotry.

Ayrshire has lots of Orange lodges and the town of Kilmarnock itself is probably predominantly Rangers supporting. However, Killie fans hate Rangers and Celtic equally. Deciding to call Killie fans H*ns can only be a reference to Ayshire's predominant religion as there is absolutely no Loyalist leanings at Killie at all. (at this point someone always pretends that we sing B**** boys and F***** when it's Killie boys and Ayr blood). It's an excuse to air bigoted views in my opinion.

Just to even things up here, as a Catholic of Irish origin I am also hugely offended by the F word or the T word or just about any other word designed to give offence.

What about Half rice Half chips point about the fans of other clubs and them seeing Rangers as being their so called big team. As a Glaswegian (and others) it is apparent to me that the Bridgeton area of Glasgow has more than it's fair share of Rangers supporters and some assume that because Rangers stadium is in the Ibrox/Govan area of Glasgow that means that the predominant religion in these areas must be the Protestant faith they would be wrong in my opinion.

There will be streets within those areas which have more of one than the other but over the piece it will even out it is just that some are more vocal than others. What we don't do is make the mistake of describing it as a Protestant area and in no way is a reference to the predominant religion of these areas. The second highlighted section I don't think you can make a general sweeping comment like that you don't know if truth be told what the leanings of all Killie fans are at all and never will in the same way I can't say that all Rangers fans are Loyalist. The only point you make which rings true is the way that other fans refer to Celtic & Rangers fans and it not being meant as a term of endearment.

Your point about words being which someone directed at you being Bigoted if you inform them you find them offensive does that cover the words B****** & C*** if it does then we have a problem of huge proportions here in the UK.

Just to even things up here I find the use of all words and claims designed and altered to promote the current agenda as offensive.

[shiltrum]

Depends on the connection with Rangers I suppose.

Greenyins ... The ones who play in green.

You can explain "sticky buns".

No problem good with tea and the likes.

[killienick]

What about Half rice Half chips point about the fans of other clubs and them seeing Rangers as being their so called big team. As a Glaswegian (and others) it is apparent to me that the Bridgeton area of Glasgow has more than it's fair share of Rangers supporters and some assume that because Rangers stadium is in the Ibrox/Govan area of Glasgow that means that the predominant religion in these areas must be the Protestant faith they would be wrong in my opinion.

There will be streets within those areas which have more of one than the other but over the piece it will even out it is just that some are more vocal than others. What we don't do is make the mistake of describing it as a Protestant area and in no way is a reference to the predominant religion of these areas. The second highlighted section I don't think you can make a general sweeping comment like that you don't know if truth be told what the leanings of all Killie fans are at all and never will in the same way I can't say that all Rangers fans are Loyalist. The only point you make which rings true is the way that other fans refer to Celtic & Rangers fans and it not being meant as a term of endearment.

Your point about words being which someone directed at you being Bigoted if you inform them you find them offensive does that cover the words B****** & C*** if it does then we have a problem of huge proportions here in the UK.

Just to even things up here I find the use of all words and claims designed and altered to promote the current agenda as offensive.

I think you'll find that the ones generalising are Celtic fans. Constant shouts of "go home ya H*ns" directed at the Killie fans for absolutely no reason. Kilmarnock have NEVER had a fan arrested for sectarian abuse - Your lot being unable to distinguish between Killie and Billy really is it I'm afraid. As I said, I'm a Catholic of Irish origin as of course are my family, my friends too. We sit in 3 different stands between us and have been going for over 30 years - is this enough for me to generalise, that no one I have ever met has ever expressed any loyalist feeling?

P.S. I find it extremely patronising to assume that I need a 'big team'. That's your paranoid agenda at work again. If they're not with us then they must be against us attitude. Killie are my big and only team. Who is your big team incidentally? Artmedia Bratislava? How many Scottish towns/clubs does that theory have Celtic as their big team.

[shiltrum]

I think you'll find that the ones generalising are Celtic fans. Constant shouts of "go home ya H*ns" directed at the Killie fans for absolutely no reason. Kilmarnock have NEVER had a fan arrested for sectarian abuse - Your lot being unable to distinguish between Killie and Billy really is it I'm afraid. As I said, I'm a Catholic of Irish origin as of course are my family, my friends too. We sit in 3 different stands between us and have been going for over 30 years - is this enough for me to generalise, that no one I have ever met has ever expressed any loyalist feeling?

P.S. I find it extremely patronising to assume that I need a 'big team'. That's your paranoid agenda at work again. If they're not with us then they must be against us attitude. Killie are my big and only team. Who is your big team incidentally? Artmedia Bratislava? How many Scottish towns/clubs does that theory have Celtic as their big team.

The Celtic fans can have selective hearing at times but there you go again with the never attitude I say again you can't say with all impunity that there are no Kilmarnock fans who don't have Loyalist leanings despite what you cite that none have been dragged through the courts.

What you can say is that in all your years in going to watch Kilmarnock you have never spoken to or overheard any Kilmarnock fans express or show loyalist leanings, that I can accept but never no way.

You know what I find patronising, it is people claiming to be extremely patronised and then falling down and being extremely patronising to others who point out their extremely patronising faults and not being able to see that they are guilty of the same but just don't like it being highlighted. What about my question ref the words B****** & C*** ?

[killienick]

The Celtic fans can have selective hearing at times but there you go again with the never attitude I say again you can't say with all impunity that there are no Kilmarnock fans who don't have Loyalist leanings despite what you cite that none have been dragged through the courts.

What you can say is that in all your years in going to watch Kilmarnock you have never spoken to or overheard any Kilmarnock fans express or show loyalist leanings, that I can accept but never no way.

You know what I find patronising, it is people claiming to be extremely patronised and then falling down and being extremely patronising to others who point out their extremely patronising faults and not being able to see that they are guilty of the same but just don't like it being highlighted. What about my question ref the words B****** & C*** ?

I assumed that question was rhetorical as it was stupid. You could add the words sausage and cheese if you want to make it even more ridiculous? The point I was making is that if there is a word which you think is fine but someone else things is racist or bigoted, if you continue using it after you have been informed that they are offended by that word, then in DELBERATELY using it you are a bigot? It's a very simple theory isn't it? Maybe I am sensitive, but I grew up being called words like p*pe, t*ig and f*nian. These words and their ethimologies can be argued to be non offensive however I was offended by them. Words evolve in their meanings, gay being a good example. H*n, depending on the context and environment could be deemed bigoted, and particularly if followed by one of your examples words.

Also, by your logic and following a simple mathematical model, as Celtic's crowd is probably 10 times the size of Kilmarnock's average it is entirely possible that Celtic have 10 times the amount of people with Loyalist leanings? You might not have heard them and there are probably no recorded cases but that doesn't mean they're not there.