Don't blame me I voted Yes!

[doulikefish]

Not really, H_B's been banging this deceitful drum for years.

Shows how much i notice of him

[Fide]

Does anyone truly think that H_B gives one f**k about the CT freeze or does he, in fact, just enjoy a good old ego-stroking troll?

[H_B]

http://news.sky.com/story/1070777/unjust-council-tax-hikes-to-hit-poorest

Let's try again Parp.

As a tip this time, try and answer the questions with words, not an Enrico Annoni-esque Google trawl.

Are you or are you not disputing that the majority of the millions it costs to implement this policy by the SG goes to theose not in need, who are already wealthy?

Are you or are you not disputing that the poorest in society pay £0 Council Tax by virtue of full CTR reduction eligibility?

[H_B]

There are many ways to define the "poorest" however applicablity of CTR is not really one of those as it is an income based assessment.

Oh dear.

Again, an impressive feat is actually quoting your own fail, to draw attention to your own idiocy.

Applicability of CTR is not an income based assessment you moron. It's an income and capital based assessment. Someone with £0 income and £100,000 savings is not eligible for CTR.

Impressive that you can't actually understand the not overly complex criteria for CTR eligibility, but more impressive still that you wish to champion this by... quoting your own fail.

[Alan Stubbs]

It's painful watching someone blindly defending a political party, despite evidence being thrown in front of them. Especially when they're trying use 'win the internet' tactics. The idea that the SNP are somehow 'different' to other political parties is laughable. They all play games and try and pull the wool over the eyes of the electorate at points to suit them. The SNP are no different. Having a hippy with a ponytail and a 20 year old in their ranks changes nothing when they're regurgitating pre-planned tweet attacks and trying to sweep the obvious under the carpet as it's not convenient to the image they want to portray.

Please

This is the classic HB thing (stolen from Supras) where they make some ludicrous statement; start framing the argument around their own detailed criteria (in this case, "very poorest" v "mansion owners") and then instead of having a proper debate about the subject; just ask their own reductive question over and over again to try and get the last word.

There's no expectation that a self-described Social Democratic Party must spend every penny at its disposal on the "very poorest". You're absolutely kidding yourself if you think it's an intellectually honest argument.

[Baxter Parp]

Let's try again Parp.

As a tip this time, try and answer the questions with words, not an Enrico Annoni-esque Google trawl.

Are you or are you not disputing that the majority of the millions it costs to implement this policy by the SG goes to theose not in need, who are already wealthy?

In what way are millions going to the wealthy?

Do please continue to try to ignore the massive amount of evidence that Council Tax rises hit the poorest the hardest. It fits your disgraceful LibDem values to a tee.

[Alan Stubbs]

...and to give my opinion on it, I'm sure it was a populist policy but an understandably popular one in 2007. Given the difficulty many medium-level income households were/(are?) having and the effect this has on growth, freezing a large* expense for these people seems to be an entirely sensible policy to me.

We're still seeing a pretty lopsided recovery but when we get to a point of small/medium earners genuinely enjoying a healthier level of disposable income, I'd probably scrap the Council Tax freeze.

* Large as in actually large for the person. Absolutely no millionaire is going to give a shit about a Council Tax freeze. Obviously.

[H_B]

In what way are millions going to the wealthy?

Do please continue to try to ignore the massive amount of evidence that Council Tax rises hit the poorest the hardest. It fits your disgraceful LibDem values to a tee.

Council Tax rises do not hit the poorest hardest. This really shouldn't be too tricky even for you Parp. The poorest don't pay Council Tax. We've established this.

As for your first question, again, reading the actual thread before making a clownfuck of yourself (I know, I know - why break the habit of a lifetime?) might be an idea.

Would you give more to the richest 10% of people in our society than to the poorest 30%?

Would you give almost twice as much to the richest 50% in Scotland as you gave to the poorest 50%?

I ask because that’s exactly what the council tax freeze does.

[H_B]

We're still seeing a pretty lopsided recovery but when we get to a point of small/medium earners genuinely enjoying a healthier level of disposable income, I'd probably scrap the Council Tax freeze.

So, you are more concerned about the small/medium earners than you are about the zero/close to zero earners?

That's progressive!

Here's an idea. How about scrapping the policy and using the money to actually target those most in need. which, here's a clue, might just be the poorest in society. Those who pay £0 Council Tax and watch their local services suffer. Still not to worry, the hundreds of millions spent giving handouts to the richest in Scotland will I'm sure warm the cockles of their hearts.

There's no expectation that a self-described Social Democratic Party must spend every penny at its disposal on the "very poorest".

Well, duh. This point has already been made - again, in Parpian fashion, that was obviously just a bit difficult for you to grasp.

It's a sensible policy to appease the middle classes and secure their votes. No genuinely left wing party would have a hope in hell of achieving what the SNP have.

Let's call the SNP what they are though. A party with wide ranging policies that benefit the poor and the rich. Very centrist.

Let's not wring hands about poverty and sniff tearily about those brave progressive Nats battling hard for the scheme goblins. If they genuinely wanted to tackle poverty as an absolute priority, they'd be spending more of the money they have on those in most acute need - not on Morningside mansion holders with Bentleys.

[Granny Danger]

Does anyone truly think that H_B gives one f**k about the CT freeze or does he, in fact, just enjoy a good old ego-stroking troll?

No I don't think he gives a f**k but the debate should not be about one poster rather the wider point.

Can we just agree that the CT should be scrapped and replaced with a more progressive alternative? Can we also agree (or maybe not ) that the SNP have had a majority at Holyrood for four years and could have progressed this further?

[H_B]

No I don't think he gives a f**k but the debate should not be about one poster rather the wider point. Can we just agree that the CT should be scrapped and replaced with a more progressive alternative? Can we also agree (or maybe not ) that the SNP have had a majority at Holyrood for four years and could have progressed this further?

It's in the interests of the SNP can do no wrong types to avoid the substance of the point. Hence the "look squirrel" and sweep attempts.

You are right that CT should be replaced and that the SNP could have done a lot more about it and chose not to. One of their problems is that they are actually very controlling and not at all in favour of passing power down to local levels. Ironically in a sense.

But even taking away the replacement of CT as an issue - the CT freeze isn't some policy forced upon them they have had to do. It's a conscious decision on the part of the SNP to use hundreds of millions to buy votes from those who have plenty of disposable income. That's absolutely fine, and perfectly sensible, but it should be remembered every time these jokers preach to us about the horrors of poverty.

Something they could be doing a hell of a lot more to address if they chose to.

[Baxter Parp]

Council Tax rises do not hit the poorest hardest. This really shouldn't be too tricky even for you Parp. The poorest don't pay Council Tax. We've established this.

As for your first question, again, reading the actual thread before making a clownfuck of yourself (I know, I know - why break the habit of a lifetime?) might be an idea.

Would you give more to the richest 10% of people in our society than to the poorest 30%?

Would you give almost twice as much to the richest 50% in Scotland as you gave to the poorest 50%?

I ask because that’s exactly what the council tax freeze does.

Well, still a lying c**t then. Back on iggy for you chummy.

[Fide]

Can we also agree (or maybe not ) that the SNP have had a majority at Holyrood for four years and could have progressed this further?

No, because SNP = good.

HTH.

[H_B]

Well, still a lying c**t then. Back on iggy for you chummy.

Oh dear Darien Parp,

Not my figures. The Scottish government's.

[MarkoRaj]

No I don't think he gives a f**k but the debate should not be about one poster rather the wider point.Can we just agree that the CT should be scrapped and replaced with a more progressive alternative? Can we also agree (or maybe not ) that the SNP have had a majority at Holyrood for four years and could have progressed this further?

I think that's already been agreed.

[Alan Stubbs]

So, you are more concerned about the small/medium earners than you are about the zero/close to zero earners?

That's progressive!

Wait, do you actually think that right after laying out your Supras style last word tennis thing...

Please

This is the classic HB thing (stolen from Supras) where they make some ludicrous statement; start framing the argument around their own detailed criteria (in this case, "very poorest" v "mansion owners") and then instead of having a proper debate about the subject; just ask their own reductive question over and over again to try and get the last word.

There's no expectation that a self-described Social Democratic Party must spend every penny at its disposal on the "very poorest". You're absolutely kidding yourself if you think it's an intellectually honest argument.

...that I'm actually going to take part in it? Incredible.

I'll answer this pish once, then you can play out the whole asking me the same meaningless question over and over again thing in your head.

No, I'm not more concerned about medium earners than the poorest. I don't think every policy a Government introduces must be spent purely on "the poorest" for it to be worthwhile though. That is quite obviously an over-simplified, unrealistic and impractical idea. One which isn't applied to anything or anyone else other than in these SNPBAD discussions. Indeed Ad Lib, just listed a whole bunch of apparently "redistributive" policies which don't benefit the very poorest in society but do help the very richest. I'm not going to say reducing tax for someone on £9k a year is a bad thing because someone with no income isn't benefited. That would be pretty stupid.

I think the 10.5k threshold is a good thing and I think the Council Tax freeze thing is a good thing (for now, would possibly revise this in the near future). Both could easily fit in the programme of a Social Democratic party during recession or a period of limited growth.

Here's an idea. How about scrapping the policy and using the money to actually target those most in need. which, here's a clue, might just be the poorest in society. Those who pay £0 Council Tax and watch their local services suffer. Still not to worry, the hundreds of millions spent giving handouts to the richest in Scotland will I'm sure warm the cockles of their hearts.

Good idea. Let's sack the same proportion of school teachers as there are middle class children in each school and spend it on food vouchers as well.

Well, duh. This point has already been made - again, in Parpian fashion, that was obviously just a bit difficult for you to grasp.

It's a sensible policy to appease the middle classes and secure their votes. No genuinely left wing party would have a hope in hell of achieving what the SNP have.

Terrific analysis, I have ever said the SNP are an out and out left-wing party? They're a pretty managerial and I agree populist centre-left party. They could be further to the left for my taste and their Council Tax policy isn't an example of why. Your hyperbolic nonsense about the Maldives and tennis rackets does nothing to offer any kind of grown up debate on that. It's the hysterical spraff of someone out of his depth.

[Fide]

Wait, do you actually think that right after laying out your Supras style last word tennis thing...

...that I'm actually going to take part in it? Incredible.

I'll answer this pish once, then you can play out the whole asking me the same meaningless question over and over again thing in your head.

No, I'm not more concerned about medium earners than the poorest. I don't think every policy a Government introduces must be spent purely on "the poorest" for it to be worthwhile though. That is quite obviously an over-simplified, unrealistic and impractical idea. One which isn't applied to anything or anyone else other than in these SNPBAD discussions. Indeed Ad Lib, just listed a whole bunch of apparently "redistributive" policies which don't benefit the very poorest in society but do help the very richest. I'm not going to say reducing tax for someone on £9k a year is a bad thing because someone with no income isn't benefited. That would be pretty stupid.

I think the 10.5k threshold is a good thing and I think the Council Tax freeze thing is a good thing (for now, would possibly revise this in the near future). Both could easily fit in the programme of a Social Democratic party during recession or a period of limited growth.

Good idea. Let's sack the same proportion of school teachers as there are middle class children in each school and spend it on food vouchers as well.

Terrific analysis, I have ever said the SNP are an out and out left-wing party? They're a pretty managerial and I agree populist centre-left party. They could be further to the left for my taste and their Council Tax policy isn't an example of why. Your hyperbolic nonsense about the Maldives and tennis rackets does nothing to offer any kind of grown up debate on that. It's the hysterical spraff of someone out of his depth.

That, I believe, is what's known as "telt".

[AUFC90]

Why do people reply to Anthony C Pick ? He slithered off the last time because, in the end, absolutely no one took him seriously. Now people have decided to start feeding him again. This is the man who thinks that the poor should be given vouchers and now he bleats on about council tax

Get him tae f**k, he's a busted flush just like the party he once supported.

[H_B]

Good idea. Let's sack the same proportion of school teachers as there are middle class children in each school and spend it on food vouchers as well.

This could be the worst ever straw man that has ever appeared on this site. Which, amongst that clusterfuck of a post actually stands out. And based on your previous performances has plenty of competition.

Kudos.

No, I'm not more concerned about medium earners than the poorest.

I said small/medium earners. Why are you happy for crumbs to be given to those who are above the CTR threshold, the bulk of the loaf to middle/higher earners and not even a sniff of yeast to the poorest in society?

You are happy to champion a policy that gives hundreds of millions to the rich and middle class, and more to the top 10% in society than to the bottom 30%.

Fantastic!

[Fide]

#tragic