McSpreader Posted February 15, 2017 Share Posted February 15, 2017 1 hour ago, Weesiecodal said: Independence is an absolute no brainier for me this time. I started off as a definite no voter before the 2014 referendum. I can't stand Alex Salmond and didn't think much of the rest of the SNP either, but after hearing a few folk I respected present their arguments, I did a lot of research myself and finally came to the conclusion that independence would be the best way forward for Scotland. Im not a nationalist, but I see Scotland and England (not nesecarrily NI or Wales) going in different directions. Anyway, this time, I can't see why anyone would think we are better off staying in the UK. 62% voted to remain in the EU. All Scottish parties and party leaders campaigned to stay in. All local authority areas voted to stay in. 58/59 of Scottish MPs voted against triggering Article 50, and yet we are leaving the EU. The collectiveScottish voice was totally dismissed. To me, this perfectly highlights that no matter what Scotland votes for, it will never be considered, unless it happens to co-incide with what middle England wants - and that's not going to happen too often, I suspect. And, more importantly than Scotland, the state NI is in at the moment. They could be on the cusp of a return to terrorism as a daily occurrence, and yet even that isn't enough to stop Westminster in their tracks and think again for the benefit of the people from a country who are supposed to be "partners". It absolutely sickens me. Personally, I'm ambivalent about leaving/remaining in the EU. There are positives and negatives to being a member. Im not ambivalent about being telt to sit down and shut up though. No offence but you will be telt to sit down and shut from Holyrood after independence so nothing will change.... You say independence is the best way forward........forward to what exactly? What is going to be so wonderful in this fabled Scottish Nirvana? What we need in Scotland is an administration in Edinburgh that actually fights it's corner in the UK. It's going to be a lot harder asking the rUK to treat us any better after independence. We haven't got a great deal to offer them in real strategic terms, have we? We will not be the rUK's priority......You are probably expecting the UK to get a tough deal from the EU.....that will be a piece of cake compared to our negotiations with the rUK. Any who considers independence now isn't looking at things rationally. -3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shades75 Posted February 15, 2017 Share Posted February 15, 2017 3 minutes ago, oaksoft said: Not everyone has a smartphone. In fact I would hazard a guess that most people don't. Not everyone gets the bus. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shades75 Posted February 15, 2017 Share Posted February 15, 2017 (edited) 40 minutes ago, McSpreader said: No offence but you will be telt to sit down and shut from Holyrood after independence so nothing will change.... You say independence is the best way forward........forward to what exactly? What is going to be so wonderful in this fabled Scottish Nirvana? What we need in Scotland is an administration in Edinburgh that actually fights it's corner in the UK. It's going to be a lot harder asking the rUK to treat us any better after independence. We haven't got a great deal to offer them in real strategic terms, have we? We will not be the rUK's priority......You are probably expecting the UK to get a tough deal from the EU.....that will be a piece of cake compared to our negotiations with the rUK. Any who considers independence now isn't looking at things rationally. It's incredible to me, I may well be misguided, that the democratic deficit is so far down the list of considerations for some unionists. The means to control your own affairs and a right to choose the party that exercises self-governance seems to me the minimal starting point of any country that claims to be democratic. I've never seen a good enough answer as to why Scotland shouldn't have that. Edited February 15, 2017 by Shades75 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shades75 Posted February 15, 2017 Share Posted February 15, 2017 7 minutes ago, oaksoft said: Which is why our roads are gridlocked for hours every day. This is a fun game. The main driver of that is over-population. It's not that fun. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weesiecodal Posted February 15, 2017 Share Posted February 15, 2017 (edited) 52 minutes ago, McSpreader said: No offence but you will be telt to sit down and shut from Holyrood after independence so nothing will change.... You say independence is the best way forward........forward to what exactly? What is going to be so wonderful in this fabled Scottish Nirvana? What we need in Scotland is an administration in Edinburgh that actually fights it's corner in the UK. It's going to be a lot harder asking the rUK to treat us any better after independence. We haven't got a great deal to offer them in real strategic terms, have we? We will not be the rUK's priority......You are probably expecting the UK to get a tough deal from the EU.....that will be a piece of cake compared to our negotiations with the rUK. Any who considers independence now isn't looking at things rationally. Im not sure if I made my point clearly in my post? Clearly you didn't get it anyway. I was being honest about how I see things and what outcome I would like us to achieve, I wasn't patronising or criticising anyone else for having a different view. Im not here to convince anyone to vote one way or the other. I'm not fussy if you agree or disagree. Please yourself, your opinion is just as valid as mine. The thing about the Scottish parliament is that the voting system is far fairer than Westminster, meaning that generally, consensus is required to take things forward. So no one Party can ride roughshod over everyone else. So being telt to sit down and shut up would be less likely, and would be done with far less confidence and arrogance than the current Tory administration, who are in power for the foreseeable future. Its been proven in the last couple of weeks that no matter what Scotland says, it has no impact on Westminster. That won't change. I don't see any wonderful, fabled Scottish Nirvana, and in truth, I don't know anyone who does. There are still several unanswered questions that need to be addressed before the majority opt for independence. I do however have faith in our people that we are smart enough, talented anough and determined enough to make a success of independence. Arguements like "it's going to be a lot harder asking the rUK to treat us any better after independence" really isn't persuasive, is it? Is that why we should remain in the UK? Should we, as "equal partners" even have to ask to be treated fairly in the first place, whether we are in or out? If you were in a relationship where you were treated like shit, would you stay because your partner would be even more of a b*****d if you dared to leave? "We will not be the rUK's priority"????? We aren't the rUK's priority now. We never have been, and we never will be. Is that ok with you? The block grant will be cut year on year as they privatise their NHS, and there's absolutely nothing we can do to make any difference. But we should suck it up because they might be even more nasty to us if we dare to take responsibility for ourselves? As I said, I'm ambivalent about EU membership. You're right that I'm expecting the UK to get a tough deal from the EU. They certainly won't get a better deal than they have now, so the only way from this starting point is down. You, nor I, nor any of the hundreds of "experts" who have been giving their opinions, positive or negative, know either. That's all they are doing.... giving their opinion. They don't know what deal UK will get, and they (or you) don't know what deal, if any, an independent Scotland would get. Edited February 15, 2017 by Weesiecodal 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Stubbs Posted February 15, 2017 Share Posted February 15, 2017 (edited) 28 minutes ago, oaksoft said: Yes and nobody needed to do such a thing. Nobody should need to do it now. A phone is for phoning. Using a phone for internet access is ridiculous. It's like using a sock to stir porridge. I watched my son trying to look up bus information on his phone. It was hilarious watching him faff around on such a tiny screen 3 feet away from a perfectly good tool specifically designed to do the job - a PC. Not everyone has a smartphone anyway. In fact I would hazard a guess that most people don't. I just cannot imagine ever wanting to use a phone for anything other than phoning and texting although I can understand using it for radio or music I suppose. Eh? You can check live bus times from wherever you are with a phone in about three clicks. Doing that instead of using a PC is like using a sock to stir porridge? 66% of adults in the UK own a smartphone. By all means don't get one if it's not your thing but I really don't understand your objection to people like your son using one. Edited February 15, 2017 by Alan Stubbs 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shades75 Posted February 15, 2017 Share Posted February 15, 2017 31 minutes ago, oaksoft said: Yes and nobody needed to do such a thing. Nobody should need to do it now. A phone is for phoning. Using a phone for internet access is ridiculous. It's like using a sock to stir porridge. I watched my son trying to look up bus information on his phone. It was hilarious watching him faff around on such a tiny screen 3 feet away from a perfectly good tool specifically designed to do the job - a PC. Not everyone has a smartphone anyway. In fact I would hazard a guess that most people don't. I just cannot imagine ever wanting to use a phone for anything other than phoning and texting although I can understand using it for radio or music I suppose. Are you posting from 1998? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1320Lichtie Posted February 15, 2017 Share Posted February 15, 2017 Oaksoft. What has happened to you. Why the f**k would you fire up a PC to check bus times when you've got a portable device that'll do it in 30 seconds? f**k sake. No offence to your son but he must take after his father in the brains department if he's struggling to pull that off. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Stubbs Posted February 15, 2017 Share Posted February 15, 2017 Or he's shit scared to use modern technology around his judgemental, luddite father. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1320Lichtie Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 Or he's shit scared to use modern technology around his judgemental, luddite father. Probably more likely. Poor lad. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DublinMagyar Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 I blame the wheel[emoji30] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sherrif John Bunnell Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BFTD Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 Looks like we can add "the youth of today" to the list of irrational targets of anger. I hope you youngsters all feel suitably chastened and will mend your ways forthwith. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fide Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 6 hours ago, McSpreader said: No offence but you will be telt to sit down and shut from Holyrood after independence so nothing will change.... You say independence is the best way forward........forward to what exactly? What is going to be so wonderful in this fabled Scottish Nirvana? What we need in Scotland is an administration in Edinburgh that actually fights it's corner in the UK. It's going to be a lot harder asking the rUK to treat us any better after independence. We haven't got a great deal to offer them in real strategic terms, have we? We will not be the rUK's priority......You are probably expecting the UK to get a tough deal from the EU.....that will be a piece of cake compared to our negotiations with the rUK. Any who considers independence now isn't looking at things rationally. You think Westminster treats us well now? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjw Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 Just checking here but Oaksoft started raging about the lack of electronic signs at bus stops then moved on to raging about people using electronic devices to check bus times? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McSpreader Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 7 hours ago, Shades75 said: It's incredible to me, I may well be misguided, that the democratic deficit is so far down the list of considerations for some unionists. The means to control your own affairs and a right to choose the party that exercises self-governance seems to me the minimal starting point of any country that claims to be democratic. I've never seen a good enough answer as to why Scotland shouldn't have that. Democracy is only really relevant at a local level. At National level you will never be properly represented because the constituency is too large and the issues too convoluted. At National level the polticians are too removed from the electorate and so shackled to party politics that the people are not represented. 'Scotland' as an entity is not being misrepresented because there are 5million people here all with differing views, needs and desires , but it's people will always be misrepresented because our representation is fundamentally wrong and needs to be more dynamic at a local level. You will never get that with the SNP because they will always centralise power because of their inherent need to control your life and your mindset. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DublinMagyar Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 Democracy is only really relevant at a local level. At National level you will never be properly represented because the constituency is too large and the issues too convoluted. At National level the polticians are too removed from the electorate and so shackled to party politics that the people are not represented. 'Scotland' as an entity is not being misrepresented because there are 5million people here all with differing views, needs and desires , but it's people will always be misrepresented because our representation is fundamentally wrong and needs to be more dynamic at a local level. You will never get that with the SNP because they will always centralise power because of their inherent need to control your life and your mindset. Just in? Or gin for breakfast? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benjamin_Nevis Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 1 hour ago, mjw said: Just checking here but Oaksoft started raging about the lack of electronic signs at bus stops then moved on to raging about people using electronic devices to check bus times? I thought his blatant ignorance and attention-seeking over benefits was almost funny, but this is becoming all rather sad. He's the Wisbit of the Politics forum. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1320Lichtie Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 If you can find bus times genuinely within 3 clicks then that is only going to be possible. if you allow the phone app to know your location. Correct? What phone app? Why would the phone need to know your location? Are you on the wind up? Just type in 'bus times Arbroath to Dundee' into google, on your phone for example and sorted. I've no idea what you're on about here. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fide Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 4 minutes ago, 1320Lichtie said: What phone app? Why would the phone need to know your location? Are you on the wind up? Just type in 'bus times Arbroath to Dundee' into google, on your phone for example and sorted. I've no idea what you're on about here. He refuses to engage with technology, as one of the many promotions he was passed up for was probably taken by a young, tech-savvy whizzkid.* *I'm surmising here. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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