Jennifer Lawrence and the argument about gender pay gaps

[11thHour]

Her most famous role among some folk *cough* is that of the submissive lassie on her knees allowing a dominant male to spooge all over her face for his gratification. Some might say she's been trying to overcompensate a tad with the empowered female stuff since then.

Yeah you're going to have to tell me the name of this movie.

[southernshandy]

HOW DARE YOU PUT THIS ABOUT JENNIFER!!!

She is one of the best actresses the world has ever produced. She should get paid $200m a year at least.

You are all a bunch of un appreciative arseholes

[KnightswoodBear]

[southernshandy]

This is not a laughing matter.

[KnightswoodBear]

Jennifer loves it up the bum.

True story.

[southernshandy]

Classic Shanter there by huntswood bear

[BFTD]

Banana's cranium rupturing under the pressure of all that anti-male discrimination

Taken from http://bechdeltest.com/

"Upon meeting each other, Judy Witwicky tells Mikaela Banes that she's gorgeous"



Couldn't have asked for a more beautiful example to prove my point

Thanks; that is tremendous

Surely the lack of good female roles is just a reflection of society in general. Historical figures are predominantly male due to the attitudes of the past for example. I'd imagine it will change over the course of the next few decades

^^^ this

Yeah you're going to have to tell me the name of this movie.

Directors Cut of The Hunger Games.

It's that Fappening thing. I didn't know anything about her before that, so that's still what I tend to think of when she's mentioned. Apparently the pictures may not actually be of her, though.

All of this was referred to me by a mate, naturally

HOW DARE YOU PUT THIS ABOUT JENNIFER!!!

She is one of the best actresses the world has ever produced. She should get paid $200m a year at least.

You are all a bunch of un appreciative arseholes

Knightswood Bear is generally right on most things, so I'm afraid I'll have to go with his judgement. Sorry.

[banana]

Banana's cranium rupturing under the pressure of all that anti-male discrimination

Retreating behind 'heads gone' type claims and willful ignorance

Anyway, looking forward to your 'male Bechdel test' report once you have a decent sample.

[BFTD]

Banana using the old 'it happens to men too but you don't hear anyone complaining' argument which takes no impact on levels of impact or extent of the problem.

The same defence is the one you put forward for the issue of rape.

With retrospect, thanks for the warning.

[banana]

With retrospect, thanks for the warning.

Hiding behind another poster in temporary hiding

L-to-R: NotThePars, BFTD, pandarilla

[pandarilla]

Come on, this is a NotThePars-level cowardice move. If you feel strongly about something, or strongly against something, enough to hit the reply button, back up your claims. If you can't rather than won't then perhaps take a look inwards at your conceptions.

I do not argue on women's equality in society for shits and giggles, I argue because I'm well enough read on the subject to be able to call out the this pervasive one-eyed bullshit that women in particular have a rough time of it in the west.

So when men and boys are increasingly getting systematically shat on, and vast swathes of the population are seemingly not aware of it, I'm going to talk about it.

I'm not 'allied' with anyone on here on this topic, I'm allied to getting to the truth.

Enjoy your holiday, though

I simply don't have the time chief.

You are undoubtedly well read on the subject and we have been over much of this ground many times before. I'm not up to speed with the expert opinion either way and so any debate (argument) always ends up mired in detail that's new to me. Some of it is v interesting but nothing I've read has made me even question my take on this issue. Not even close.

I know this is the coward's way out but hey ho. I've got two kids under 3, a chronic illness and a fairly time consuming job. I love bumming about on here from time to time but in-depth reading to explore nuanced argument is simply beyond me at the moment.

Couple of quick points though...

You say 'women in the west' like that's the main focus of modern feminism but I've seen loads of non western practices highlighted in recent years. Naturally western problems seem trivial in comparison but the same could be said for all issues (especially suicide rates and depression in boys).

Many people get 'shat upon' in modern society but always arguing against feminist views is not the same as simply standing up for men's issues. If anything there are many similarities, it shouldn't be one or the other.

Finally, the people who share your views do matter. It should certainly make you question your approach when some of the most ill-informed, reactionary posters on this site are on your side.

Anyhoos, my holiday was lovely, cheers.

[banana]

I simply don't have the time chief.

You are undoubtedly well read on the subject and we have been over much of this ground many times before. I'm not up to speed with the expert opinion either way and so any debate (argument) always ends up mired in detail that's new to me. Some of it is v interesting but nothing I've read has made me even question my take on this issue. Not even close.

I know this is the coward's way out but hey ho. I've got two kids under 3, a chronic illness and a fairly time consuming job. I love bumming about on here from time to time but in-depth reading to explore nuanced argument is simply beyond me at the moment.

I fully appreciate that people don't have the time to dig deep into every, many or any subjects. I appreciate that you're at least trying to engage on the front line (there's a reason you're on the right in that photo). It's taken me many hundreds of hours of self-motivated study, investigation, conversation to get a decent handle on what's actually going on beyond the headlines and the propaganda. Which has led me from your position to an almost but not quite 180' flipped position.

Given you've been unable to state any equal rights or opportunities shortfalls for women, nor ever (that I can recall) come back with any sources to support your points, what exactly would it require for your take on this issue to change to any degree?

You say 'women in the west' like that's the main focus of modern feminism but I've seen loads of non western practices highlighted in recent years. Naturally western problems seem trivial in comparison but the same could be said for all issues (especially suicide rates and depression in boys).

Non-western practices are highlighted more and more as a scramble for continued relevance (and funding, and jobs, and power, and...) by western feminism since it has pretty much run out of legitimate issues in the west regarding equal rights and opportunities. However, scratch beneath the surface of most of even those practices and the reality is far more nuanced than 'women oppressed by the evil menz in these countries!' dogma.

Some specifics from those countries?

"Women and girls are raped by soldiers in tribal warfare!" - failing to mention that men and boys are also raped by soldiers, and additionally slaughtered or force conscripted to kill and die, while the women and girls are spared.

"Women and girls are brutally circumcised!" - failing to mention that this is usually performed by the women of their family, that men and boys are also genitally mutilated and often die or have medical complications from this. In the west, FGM of babies and infants is largely illegal and unacceptable, MGM of babies and infants is largely controlled, legal, and acceptable.

"Women and girls aren't given access to education!" - failing to mention that many (sometimes equally or more) boys and men are also not given access to education, but when they are it's usaully because they are expected/forced by their society to be job slaves, providers to the women and children of their families.

Many people get 'shat upon' in modern society but always arguing against feminist views is not the same as simply standing up for men's issues.

They're not the same, but are in effect closely related as feminism has and continues to hinder progress on men's issues, both by intentional action, and by endlessly demanding that most of the pie be given to women and girls, meaning less of the pie for men and boys. Those getting shat on are being afforded at times very different levels of funding, support and government/academic/media attention, depending on their genitalia. This is gross and very clear discrimination.

You will very rarely see feminism in action working to right an inequality that is in the favour of girls and women, and indeed feminism often keeps pushing for even more inequality in the same direction. Feminism in action is not about equality, it's about victimhood, special privileges, reduced responsibilities, and increasingly the demonisation of men and boys.

Finally, the people who share your views do matter. It should certainly make you question your approach when some of the most ill-informed, reactionary posters on this site are on your side.

I've already dealt with this association fallacy, and I've no idea how well informed those people are on this or other subjects. You've also just admitted that you're not particularly well informed on the issue, so I'm assuming your advice also applies to yourself and your seemingly equally poorly informed 'allies'?

I am however repeatedly seeing that the issues I'm raising for men's issues and against feminism are largely censored in the left wing and 'progressive' media (who are all too happy to unquestioningly regurgitate feminist dogma and ignore criticism), and that the main publications pointing out the bullshit are right-leaning and 'conservative'. As a lefty, this make me feel a bit dirty, but again the truth and stand against the rising authoritarianism of the left is far more important than political positioning.

[banana]

Relevant issue for this thread on the gender pay earnings gap is coming up, with companies having to disclose the bonuses paid to their workers. Obviously, the Women's Equality Special Privileges Party had a part in foot-stamping this into policy.

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/bonus-payments-be-disclosed-gender-pay-gap-details-1525562

Companies that have more than 250 staff will have to disclose bonus payments they award to men and women employees, according to part of a proposed legislation, which seeks to end gender pay disparity in England, Wales and Scotland.

Here's what's going to happen...

The results are going to come back that women are being given on average smaller bonuses than men. This will be the headline stamped on most media outlets, feminists will be up in arms, yet more proof that women are being oppressed, the general public up and down the land and on internet forums and social media will mumble and rage how terrible it is, taskforces will be set up to deal with this heinous problem, companies will be given even more gender sensitivity training finger-pointing indoctrination.

What will hardly be highlighted, mentioned, or perhaps even measured by the survey depending on who devised it, is why men were on average given larger bonuses. Namely, hours worked, weekends worked, number of days taken off sick, relative seniority and years of experience, commitment to the job, work v life balance, and the overall effect on company profits.

This charade will be stacked to return the results that feminists want. The resultant demand will be special privileges for women who work less, have different work v life priority, etc. than their male peers; that is, reduced responsibility for their choices, increased infantilisation, less equality, less meritocracy, gold star for having a vagina.

[pandarilla]

1. scratch beneath the surface of most of even those practices and the reality is far more nuanced than 'women oppressed by the evil menz in these countries!' dogma.

2. Some specifics from those countries?

"Women and girls are raped by soldiers in tribal warfare!" - failing to mention that men and boys are also raped by soldiers, and additionally slaughtered or force conscripted to kill and die, while the women and girls are spared.

"Women and girls are brutally circumcised!" - failing to mention that this is usually performed by the women of their family, that men and boys are also genitally mutilated and often die or have medical complications from this. In the west, FGM of babies and infants is largely illegal and unacceptable, MGM of babies and infants is largely controlled, legal, and acceptable.

"Women and girls aren't given access to education!" - failing to mention that many (sometimes equally or more) boys and men are also not given access to education, but when they are it's usaully because they are expected/forced by their society to be job slaves, providers to the women and children of their families.

3. Feminism in action is not about equality, it's about victimhood, special privileges, reduced responsibilities, and increasingly the demonisation of men and boys.

4. I've already dealt with this association fallacy, and I've no idea how well informed those people are on this or other subjects. You've also just admitted that you're not particularly well informed on the issue, so I'm assuming your advice also applies to yourself and your seemingly equally poorly informed 'allies'?

5. I am however repeatedly seeing that the issues I'm raising for men's issues and against feminism are largely censored in the left wing and 'progressive' media (who are all too happy to unquestioningly regurgitate feminist dogma and ignore criticism), and that the main publications pointing out the bullshit are right-leaning and 'conservative'. As a lefty, this make me feel a bit dirty

1. No-one I have ever spoken to on this issue has expressed anything close to this opinion. Feminism as I see it is the belief that society should be as equal as possible in terms of opportunities for men and women (and tbh those who are transgender as that's something I've been convinced of recently). Western society has always been dominated by men and for me we have not reached a level of equality in the way society views women. You clearly think we have - so my question is when did we reach this point? I'm not looking for specifics - a decade will do.

2. This just looks like classic whataboutery. Do you think the numbers of boys and men raped is anywhere near the number of women and girls raped? (I vaguely remember you providing evidence that the gap was pretty small but I might be imagining that.)

Job slaves? So because society has traditionally encouraged the men to be the breadwinners that makes men job slaves? That's just daft. I am sure there are many example where education is restricted for boys but again the comparison is nowhere near equal. Women are treated as inferior in many countries (just like we used to here in Britain) and restricting education is one of the easiest ways to maintain that inferiority.

I'm certainly not going to justify male circumcision. It's something I've never fully understood. What I would say is that up until the last 5 or 6 years I hadn't even heard of FGM - I had no idea it was a thing. The media focus on this has massively raised awareness and led to some progress on this issue. If you want to start questioning the act of MGM then carry on - but at least people know that it happens in the first place.

3. This statement is one I simply do not recognise. I consider myself a feminist (in the broadest definition that I mentioned above). It is entirely about equality - in much the same way that the Civil Rights Movement was (both in the US and other countries) for black people. There were many intelligent people who opposed equal rights for Black Americans.

4. I was clearly talking about some of the absolute bawbags that frequent (or troll) many of these types of threads. The idea that I should consider myself as ill-informed as them is slightly hurtful - but I know you don't mean it

5. Are there any other issues where you do not fit into the usual 'left wing' viewpoint?

[banana]

1. No-one I have ever spoken to on this issue has expressed anything close to this opinion. Feminism as I see it is the belief that society should be as equal as possible in terms of opportunities for men and women (and tbh those who are transgender as that's something I've been convinced of recently). Western society has always been dominated by men and for me we have not reached a level of equality in the way society views women. You clearly think we have - so my question is when did we reach this point? I'm not looking for specifics - a decade will do.

2. This just looks like classic whataboutery. Do you think the numbers of boys and men raped is anywhere near the number of women and girls raped? (I vaguely remember you providing evidence that the gap was pretty small but I might be imagining that.)

Job slaves? So because society has traditionally encouraged the men to be the breadwinners that makes men job slaves? That's just daft. I am sure there are many example where education is restricted for boys but again the comparison is nowhere near equal. Women are treated as inferior in many countries (just like we used to here in Britain) and restricting education is one of the easiest ways to maintain that inferiority.

I'm certainly not going to justify male circumcision. It's something I've never fully understood. What I would say is that up until the last 5 or 6 years I hadn't even heard of FGM - I had no idea it was a thing. The media focus on this has massively raised awareness and led to some progress on this issue. If you want to start questioning the act of MGM then carry on - but at least people know that it happens in the first place.

3. This statement is one I simply do not recognise. I consider myself a feminist (in the broadest definition that I mentioned above). It is entirely about equality - in much the same way that the Civil Rights Movement was (both in the US and other countries) for black people. There were many intelligent people who opposed equal rights for Black Americans.

4. I was clearly talking about some of the absolute bawbags that frequent (or troll) many of these types of threads. The idea that I should consider myself as ill-informed as them is slightly hurtful - but I know you don't mean it

5. Are there any other issues where you do not fit into the usual 'left wing' viewpoint?

1. I'm pretty sure I've mentioned before, you're a classic 'coffee shop feminist', and most other people you speak to who say they are feminists are also this type of feminist. I was one. You've been casually indoctrinated by society and many decades of one-eyed feminist propaganda in mainstream culture/media to believe that women have always had it bad, men have always had it relatively good. "Feminism is the same as womens rights." You're unaware of what feminism is actually about and is actually doing, and have been blinded and desensitised to issues facing men and boys.

The actual ideology of feminism states that women are and always have been oppressed by men in various ways, it's called Patriarchy theory. This is the fundamental pillar of modern feminism. Women are victims, at the hands of men, full stop.This is what's being preached in Women's Studies and Gender Studies classes, and increasingly in compulsory offshoot classes for all students, such as 'gender sensitivity training', 'rape culture training', and so forth.

The truth is that men and women have been and are often treated poorly everywhere, and have always been. Where extra rights have existed for men, additional responsibilities have gone with them, none more so brutal than the right to vote (eventually) being linked to conscription. For the majority of men for a time, it was an earned right, something you paid for with your safety and sanity. The majority of men forced to fight in WWI had no voting rights, but objectors were treated viciously, and shamefully by feminists of the time in the White Feather campaign - I wonder if that made it into the recent Suffragette movie? The right to vote for women came with no such responsibilities (or any), and indeed the majority of women polled in the US were against being given the right to vote as they were afraid it would've meant being sent to the front lines. The same goes for the right to own land, property, work in certain fields, and so forth - additional responsibility was packaged.

Society does view men and women differently, sometimes negatively, no doubt. Start looking more closely at the male part of the equation. Western society has always been dominated by men in some ways, and I'd argue by women in others. The spheres of influence have just been different. While for various reasons a Glass Ceiling has to some extent existed for women, that ceiling has also generally been impassable for the vast majority of men. Also, western society is absolutely dominated by men at the bottom (war dead, work dead, homeless, suicides, murder victims, unsafe jobs, prison population, poverty, ...), while women are increasingly held up by a Glass Floor. Men are seen as disposable.

As far as I'm aware, women having at least all of the same rights and opportunities in law and policy became a reality in the 70s and 80s, with stuff like the equal pay act. I get the feeling I'm forgetting some small legacy stuff that was fixed in the early 90s. Men are still lagging behind areas where women have for a very long time enjoyed additional rights and opportunities. So to answer your question, equality still hasn't been achieved - women got the additional rights men had, men have not been afforded the same in return, and are indeed being effectively written out of new laws/policies that focus on new protections/privileges for women and girls.

2. Pointing out decades of ongoing propaganda, double standards, censorship and a systemic empathy gap is not whataboutary, especially considering we're talking about murder and abuse. The rape/sexual assault numbers are indeed very close for the normal population. When prison and military stats are also taken into account (US), men are raped/sexually assaulted considerably more than women and girls.

Yes, job slaves in the same way that women are viewed as house slaves. Forced by societal norms to go out to work in all weather and conditions to support the women and children at home.

The education gaps are generally far smaller that you are probably imagining, though they do exist in places (again, for reasons, and not always palatable reasons). The education gaps that don't get feminists jumping up and down are in the west where 55 to approaching two thirds of graduates in different countries are now women. Yet the focus is still on propelling more women into higher education with all sorts of special programmes, quotas, grants, and of course the fabricated STEM hysteria. I did mention that feminism keeps working in the direction of inequality when it's in the favour of women and girls? That feminism is about special privileges, not equality?

3. re: Coffee shop feminism. It doesn't equal the reality of feminism in action.

4. Fair enough. It's often hard to judge online, eh?

5. Probably, I'm not concerned about towing a political line and don't chain myself to any political party. On the whole 'lefty' is accurate. This should underline my point that fighting authoritarianism is more important. A large and growing number of fellow lefties agree.

---

This is a huge, winding subject that a few paragraphs can't ever do justice to. I've offered before and offer again, if you want general or specific resources to plow through, let me know.

Finally, I'm going to repeat my question: Given you've been unable to state any equal rights or opportunities shortfalls for women, nor ever (that I can recall) come back with any sources to support your points, what exactly would it require for your take on this issue to change to any degree?

[Audaces Fortuna Juvat]

And all of this because of Jenifer Lawrence?

[pandarilla]

(Apologies for copy n paste from Word but I can't type properly on this website anymore - so frustrating)

This is all a bit too David Icke for me banana.

Feminism is surely not defined by those who oppose it. For me (and many other coffee shop feminists) there is nothing anti-man about it. Nothing at all.

‘The truth is that men and women have been and are often treated poorly everywhere, and have always been.’

Yes of course they have – but very often this was due to the decision made by the men in power (usually (but by no mean always) white men – if we want to throw race into the mixer).

You mention the White Feather campaign of the First World War (of which my great grandfather was subjected to once). We teach this as part of our FWW course and I’m almost certain it is shown in the recent US suffrage film ‘Iron Jawed Angels’ – it’s certainly not been airbrushed from history. But again I make the point that it was men who decided who voted and who didn’t in Britain – and women were added on in 1918 as a bit of an after-thought.

You then mention the idea of ‘different spheres’ in society. This is the very language used by those opposed to women getting the vote 100 years ago. To me that is not a coincidence – and that it is not me and my coffee-shop pals that are being duped by propaganda.

‘The rape/sexual assault numbers are indeed very close for the normal population.’

Obviously finding accurate rape statistics is mired in difficulties but after a quick search for the UK I found these figures:

69,000 female, 9,000 male rape victims per year: get the full data – Home Office/ Dept. of Justice – England & Wales

Now I’m pretty sure you’ll dispute these numbers and have counter figures but still. I simply cannot accept that the number of rapes are anywhere near ‘very close’ when gender is compared.

‘Yes, job slaves in the same way that women are viewed as house slaves. Forced by societal norms to go out to work in all weather and conditions to support the women and children at home.’

I’m not having this either. I’m a believer that employment is a human right and for most women that was denied – other than domestic service. The term job slaves screams out something that anti-feminists have created to counter the historical argument against them. This is about capitalism – and again it was men making the decision at the top.

In terms of education there is now a lot of focus on boys from white working class backgrounds who have been the ones left behind in recent years. This is entirely right but there are also still too few girls choosing the STEM subjects (bright girls who could undoubtedly cope with them). Efforts generally go to where the figures point – unless you want to bring in the old private school debate.

In relation to your final question – I think the biggest issue for women in the west is twofold:

Firstly, there is institutional imbalance in places of power (boardrooms, parliaments). Huge strides have been made obviously (women now make up 23.5% of ftse 100 directorships – which has doubled in the last couple of years) but I think there is an aggressive, testosterone-fueled emphasis in many of these places (including from many of the women who have made it).

Secondly, despite (again) great strides, there is still too much violence against women. I posted the figures above (Home Office) and they are generally what I’d expect to see.

[BFTD]

And all of this because of Jenifer Lawrence?

[~~~]

If you're a Hollywood actor then surely your wage is negotiable. I don't see how you can complain about someone else earning more money. Studios obviously want to pay as little as possible, not because they want to pay female actors less but because they enjoy having money.

I'd argue the majority of jobs are a fixed salary in the UK, A female police officer, firefighter, super market working etc.. will earn exactly the same as a man.

[pandarilla]

I wish banana and pandarilla would just bump uglies and get it over and done with.

I'm slightly concerned that even if I don't consent we'd be having sex anyway...

(I would like to clearly state that I am in no way suggesting that banana is a rapist (I know that's what it looks like but I actually enjoy the debate and have quite a lot of respect for the guy))