Offensive Behaviour at Football Act cave in.

[welshbairn]

53 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

That was a quick switch from the "strawman" argument to the "in this day and age" argument. Presumably next up will be "children might hear it and think".

How many years after the mines closed and with many more black people living in Scotland will it be another "straw argument"?

Edited February 28, 2019 by welshbairn

[pandarilla]

How many years after the mines closed and with many more black people living in Scotland will it be another "straw argument"?

Well I'm 38, and I grew up with the term (both sides of my family were from mining villages).

In Ayrshire this term has absolutely nothing to do with race.

[craigkillie]

5 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

How many years after the mines closed and with many more black people living in Scotland will it be another "straw argument"?

It will always be a strawman argument, because the phrase used in this context will never be racist.

[pandarilla]

‘Scotland fans sang ‘We hate Jimmy Hill, he’s a poof.’ I assume thats fine because Jimmy Hill was a straight, married man? 
’
 

The original singing of the term was homophobic. What exactly is your point here? This appears to be worse than your first argument.

(And I'm of the opinion that Ayr fans shouldn't sing it, but for common sense, 'not worth the hassle' reasons.)

[lichtgilphead]

In my experience, the word before "b*****ds" in this songhas two syllables. I can think of versions that use dirty, tinky & the f-word that isn't "f*cking"

How the hell do you fit "black" into the song anyway?

And Ayr fans - why don't you sing "dirty" to describe an unwashed person? Why stick with something that some may consider racist?

[pandarilla]

In my experience, the word before "b*****ds" in this songhas two syllables. I can think of versions that use dirty, tinky & the f-word that isn't "f*cking"
How the hell do you fit "black" into the song anyway?
And Ayr fans - why don't you sing "dirty" to describe an unwashed person? Why stick with something that some may consider racist?

This is my argument, that it's not worth this continuous discussion every single time. But folk, unsurprisingly, don't like being told they're being racist when they're not.

[pandarilla]

That using homophobic terms in songs makes a song homophobic, in the same way that using a racist term in a song makes a song racist.
Would a black man watching an Ayr game who didn’t know the local, ‘not at all racist, honest guv,’ meaning find it racist? There’s your answer, and there’s why you shouldn’t sing it. Not because ‘it’s hassle we don’t need.’ 

The term in the Jimmy hill sing was entirely homophobic, in every context.

The term 'black b*****d' has been used in Ayrshire for hundreds of years, with absolutely no connection to race.

If you're using "what if someone didn't know that", as your definition of what's acceptable, then the world becomes a very difficult place.

[Thistle_do_nicely]

14 minutes ago, ali_91 said:

That using homophobic terms in songs makes a song homophobic, in the same way that using a racist term in a song makes a song racist.

Would a black man watching an Ayr game who didn’t know the local, ‘not at all racist, honest guv,’ meaning find it racist? There’s your answer, and there’s why you shouldn’t sing it. Not because ‘it’s hassle we don’t need.’ 

I'm jumping in a bit here - but would he still find it racist if someone explained the context behind it?

I think if you're directing the song specifically toward someone who is black and trying to claim the "dirty/poor hygiene" meaning then it's a different story; you may very well be trying to hide a genuine racist motivation behind something else.

The target would fairly clearly be "fans of the other football club", when sung at a football match, I think, and not solely black people in particular. That's not always the case with, ah, certain songs we get treated to every single weekend from certain clubs of course.

We do need to think before we speak, aye, but we shouldn't be afraid of saying something that someone somewhere might, out of it's proper context, take offence to.

edit: i just tried "saying something that someone somewhere" out loud and i really enjoyed it, rolls off the tongue nicely A+++ would recommend

Edited February 28, 2019 by Thistle_do_nicely

[craigkillie]

25 minutes ago, ali_91 said:

It’s not somebody though, the average meaning of that term is understood by 99.9% of the English speaking population of the world to mean one thing. The intent behind something isn’t as important as the outcome for me. Whether it’s intended to offend or not, the average person hearing that would, rightly, find it offensive, something which Ayr fans are well aware of. 

Something being mistaken as racist is not the same as it being racist.

[Granny Danger]

28 minutes ago, MixuFixit said:

This is like Tam Cowan insisting on calling an ice cream a black man cos that's what it was called when he was wee.

Good point.   Anyone taking the same position as Tam Cowan on matters such as this should know they’re instinctively wrong.

[pandarilla]

If the person saying it knows that the average person would think it racist, I’d argue then it becomes racist. Not caring that it could be taken as racist is pretty poor.
I’ve made my thoughts clear anyway, and it’s wildly off topic so this is the last I’m saying on it. 

Both myself and craigkillie would probably agree with this post. Neither of us sing it, for common sense reasons.

But this is different to what was being said a few pages back. The context really does matter with these things.

[AUFC90]

Please explain how calling a white person from Shortless, who's house is a shite hole, a black b*****d is racist.  

Any chance of answering this Ali_91. Jakeys have been called blackos in this part of the country long before African people turned. Get over yourself.

 

[AUFC90]

I can absolutely confirm that Cumnock is rammed full of black b*****ds and all them are white....close thread.

[NotThePars]

You can make the argument that it wasn’t meant to be racist when originally sung but anyone still insisting that it’s totally fine to sing it in 2019 is suspect.

[AUFC90]

You can make the argument that it wasn’t meant to be racist when originally sung but anyone still insisting that it’s totally fine to sing it in 2019 is suspect.

It's not even the fact it's still sung. It's still said by a large portion of the population in the same context it was originally intended. I dunno why. Ayrshires always been a bit slanger than everywhere else and that term in that context has always been used and isn't racist in the slightest.

[NotThePars]

It's not even the fact it's still sung. It's still said by a large portion of the population in the same context it was originally intended. I dunno why. Ayrshires always been a bit slanger than everywhere else and that term in that context has always been used and isn't racist in the slightest.

I worked with folk in the east end of Glasgow who still said it. When I pointed out the optics of calling someone “a black b*****d” regardless of their ethnicity weren’t great they packed it in. You would hope the deepest darkest parts of Ayrshire would catch up.

[D.A.F.C]

We called people black or used black as an insult at school if, for example, someone dropped a sweet on the floor and ate it.

Was a kid called black bob who our french teacher even called bob noir to our amusement.

[AUFC90]

We called people black or used black as an insult at school if, for example, someone dropped a sweet on the floor and ate it.
Was a kid called black bob who our french teacher even called bob noir to our amusement.

No 5 second rule in Fife ? [emoji6]

[AUFC90]

Getting an endorsement from Fife doesn’t really help the cause tbh. 

Still no answered my question. There is no cause mate.

[D.A.F.C]

http://www.scotranslate.com/translate/english/dirty/1/492#.XHh86bKnzmo

This is the meaning of black. As I said it was always said about something disgusting like sharing chewing gum etc.

Perhaps it comes from miners? Like someone like a widtink in the pub still covered in grime?