Motherwell FC - A Thread For All Seasons

[YassinMoutaouakil]

Didn't see the Hearts game but I actually quite like Vale so far.

[well fan for life]

2 hours ago, capt_oats said:

In fairness, I don't disagree that we've been panicked into bringing him back but in terms of timeline it depends on how long it took the English FA to process Barnsley's appeal.

The English FA are generally quite strict with that sort of thing so I'd be surprised if Barnsley actually Jedi mind-tricked them into Shaw coming back.

Bear in mind they basically told Blackburn to f**k off after there was an "administrative error" in their submission for Duncan McGuire's loan: https://www.theguardian.com/football/2024/feb/06/mcguire-transfer-collapsed-after-blackburn-pressed-wrong-button-on-website

We announce Shaw was back on 8th February (2 days after that Blackburn appeal) so I guess there's a chance that we've legitimately agreed the deal prior to the close of deadline then sorted out the paperwork - similar to Butcher last season who was announced on 4th February - with the window having closed on 31st January.

Anyway, vaguely related to our Oli Shaw mercy dash I just noticed this on a thread on FPC (it's been a while). It's possible it got lost in all the noise around chucking a 3-0 lead but it seems we had a late bid for Aidan Keena binned on deadline day.

Either way it seems as if Shaw coming back was the most last resort thing going.

I don't think I'm enjoying our drawn out attempt to sign the Sligo Rovers team that papped us out of Europe.

Edited February 19 by well fan for life

[Handsome_Devil]

19 minutes ago, Phillips455 said:

Well, I hope the fact we have a week to actually prepare for a game will help us. I doubt we will win but surely we can sneak a draw?

 

It's the classic 'Celtic are there for the taking' scenario we've seen and ballsed up so often.

They've not scored more than two in a while, their defence is clearly soft, they're under massive pressure and don't know their best team. If we win, everyone will say the reasons were obvious. That said, they're clearly still levels above us. I had their game on the laptop beside ours on Saturday and as much as Killie deserve credit, it could easily have been done and dusted early. Celtic could always click again and if they do it'll be a pumping.

But we have to get it right one of these times... I'm not confident as such but have a sneaky inkling we'll take something.

Edited February 19 by Handsome_Devil

[Handsome_Devil]

3 minutes ago, YassinMoutaouakil said:

Didn't see the Hearts game but I actually quite like Vale so far.

He definitely has something but... I suspect he'll make way on Sunday.

[joewarkfanclub]

29 minutes ago, Swello said:

I think this is probably the reality for most clubs regardless of how much money they have - everyone will miss out on targets as peer clubs are all looking at the same data, listening to the same shite from agents and are all after the same players (probably more so in January as the pool is shallower). Our situation felt like we were competing for some players that we we were very likely to be outbid on - but taking a punt is also part of the January window.

As I said at the time - we actually had a reasonably good window outside of trying to get a Biereth replacement (and I'd imagine a number 9 is the most expensive/competitive market to be part of in January) - so it's not some kind of hopeless situation. If Biereth had come back as planned, I reckon we'd all be happy enough now that the dust has settled.

I think Vale is a pretty decent Biereth replacement. Not quite tye same plater I do t think, but will soften the blow until the end of the season if ge stays fit. 

[YassinMoutaouakil]

4 minutes ago, Handsome_Devil said:

He definitely has something but... I suspect he'll make way on Sunday.

Yeah "has something" is a good way of putting it, I think I'd convinced myself beforehand that he was just a random Championship kid we hadn't actually scouted or anything. 

Maybe too early to say but most of the 20/21 year olds we've loaned in this season have looked decent for the most part when they've played- Biereth, Spencer,Gent, hopefully Vale and Devine. If you're being charitable you can maybe say that reflects well on Kettlewell as a coach that clubs are trusting us with them. If you're being more unkind maybe we're just so bad nowadays that Blackburn and Huddersfield u20s slot straight into our first team.

[eliphas]

I reckon the fact we've missed out on a load of signings and the fact we've just partnered with a company who gives insight into fitba financials and salaries is no coincidence 

1 hour ago, Handsome_Devil said:

we've just lost touch

 

[capt_oats]

30 minutes ago, YassinMoutaouakil said:

Yeah "has something" is a good way of putting it, I think I'd convinced myself beforehand that he was just a random Championship kid we hadn't actually scouted or anything. 

Maybe too early to say but most of the 20/21 year olds we've loaned in this season have looked decent for the most part when they've played- Biereth, Spencer,Gent, hopefully Vale and Devine. If you're being charitable you can maybe say that reflects well on Kettlewell as a coach that clubs are trusting us with them. If you're being more unkind maybe we're just so bad nowadays that Blackburn and Huddersfield u20s slot straight into our first team.

In fairness, I'm pretty sure Spencer has started almost every game for Huddersfield since he was recalled and by all accounts he's legitimately doing well.

Ultimately that's the difference - if we're picking up the players at that level who their clubs are investing in to make a step up rather than the makeweights then chances are we're getting someone in who can do us a decent turn.

35 minutes ago, eliphas said:

I reckon the fact we've missed out on a load of signings and the fact we've just partnered with a company who gives insight into fitba financials and salaries is no coincidence.

Genuinely laughed reading that because I felt daft at having not joined those (quite obvious) dots...Yes!

I'm curious to see precisely what's on the agenda at the AGM on Wednesday with all this sort of stuff floating around in the background.

[Busta Nut]

Good point around that company, I also had missed that connection, probably cos I didn't bother reading anything about them.

[YassinMoutaouakil]

American owner coming in at St Johnstone. We'll surely realistically have at best the 10th biggest budget next season?

['WellDel]

1 hour ago, YassinMoutaouakil said:

American owner coming in at St Johnstone. We'll surely realistically have at best the 10th biggest budget next season?

Taylor hisnae patched us for the Johnnie's has she?

[YassinMoutaouakil]

42 minutes ago, 'WellDel said:

Taylor hisnae patched us for the Johnnie's has she?

Loves a tractor

[Handsome_Devil]

8 hours ago, YassinMoutaouakil said:

American owner coming in at St Johnstone. We'll surely realistically have at best the 10th biggest budget next season?

It would seem so.

It obviously depends on the details of what anyone is prepared to offer us but I'm not convinced this is an arms race worth joining.

Investing beyond a club's natural means in Scottish football almost never ends well. McCann was an exception, when Celtic had expectional circumstances, and even he was chased out of Parkhead... anyone else left in triumph?

Off the top of my head only Hearts, Celtic and Rangers achieved enough during the spending periods to remotely justify the bill. As a general rule, the cost ends up being much greater and longer lasting than the success.

As it stands (if you believe the suggestions), there will be a couple of clubs spending a fair bit of money to finish outside the top six next season or two and for those who succeed to only a limited level (Europe without the group stage say or a losing cup final) eventually will find the bill in the post.

We want to spend as much money as we sustainably can and if the city clubs pull away we have little choice but to shrug. Compared to St Mirren, Killie, St J and even Dundee there's a choice though and arguably we're much better scrambling for a season or two and taking advantage of their inevitable downturn than chasing along because everyone else is.

We saw in the late 90s and early 00s, not just to us, what happens here long-term.

Edited February 20 by Handsome_Devil
Don't write longer posts on bumpy trains

[RandomGuy.]

Theyre more likely to be buying us to make money from the non-football stuff we have than coming in to put millions into us, fwiw.

[Handsome_Devil]

11 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

Theyre more likely to be buying us to make money from the non-football stuff we have than coming in to put millions into us, fwiw.

Fair enough but the general point remains...if both Edinburgh and Dundee teams, Aberdeen, St Mirren and Killie are pushing the boat out a bit, even if the other three cheapskates are below them, one of them is finishing ninth. And while I certainly can't work out every permutation atm, instinctively you think the 'failure' to expectations will be well over 50% and often expensively so. I just don't see how it can last.

Re St J that's interesting... presumably you previously used the other stuff to subside the football? What do you gain from this then?

[RandomGuy.]

Just now, Handsome_Devil said:

Re St J that's interesting... presumably you previously used the other stuff to subside the football? What do you gain from this then?

I think we earn stupid amounts from the suites inside the stand, before covid they were virtually booked out all day every day during the week. Then theres technically 3 astro pitches that were booked out most nights. Its why it was always funny when we were in the First Division and had dross outfits with 600 more season ticket holders telling us we were either being propped up by the Browns or simply over achieving, they couldnt fathom that our turnover absolutely dwarfed them despite having less fans.

 

All we gain is getting the Browns out and owners who'll (hopefully) have an active interest in the club again. Geoff wanted to retire about 10 years, his son Steve lost all interest after the double and started our downward spiral before walking away for good, and the grandchildren have been told not to get involved. 

[Swello]

26 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

Theyre more likely to be buying us to make money from the non-football stuff we have than coming in to put millions into us, fwiw.

It's hard to break into the Perth funeral wake racket - and he's clearly seen an opportunity.

[Widge]

7 minutes ago, Swello said:

It's hard to break into the Perth funeral wake racket - and he's clearly seen an opportunity.

As mad as this is, you’re not wrong. 5 days a week saints have 2/3 wakes and get togethers after funerals in the suites. I don’t know how much it costs, but it does start to fairly add up I’m sure. As RG says, we’re not all of a sudden getting bankrolled by some multi millionaire, or at least I wouldn’t imagine so, so our budget for next year will once again be getting slashed. 

[Swello]

5 minutes ago, Widge said:

As mad as this is, you’re not wrong. 5 days a week saints have 2/3 wakes and get togethers after funerals in the suites. I don’t know how much it costs, but it does start to fairly add up I’m sure. As RG says, we’re not all of a sudden getting bankrolled by some multi millionaire, or at least I wouldn’t imagine so, so our budget for next year will once again be getting slashed. 

The reason I know it is that one of our directors actually mentioned it during an AGM - he was basically using St Johnstone as an example of a club that make the most of the stadium to the point that it can subsidise the football side of things (I'm sure it was during a bit of chat about us getting a new stadium/Fir Park being a millstone).

[JayMFC]

2 hours ago, Handsome_Devil said:

It would seem so.

It obviously depends on the details of what anyone is prepared to offer us but I'm not convinced this is an arms race worth joining.

Investing beyond a club's natural means in Scottish football almost never ends well. McCann was an exception, when Celtic had expectional circumstances, and even he was chased out of Parkhead... anyone else left in triumph?

Off the top of my head only Hearts, Celtic and Rangers achieved enough during the spending periods to remotely justify the bill. As a general rule, the cost ends up being much greater and longer lasting than the success.

As it stands (if you believe the suggestions), there will be a couple of clubs spending a fair bit of money to finish outside the top six next season or two and for those who succeed to only a limited level (Europe without the group stage say or a losing cup final) eventually will find the bill in the post.

We want to spend as much money as we sustainably can and if the city clubs pull away we have little choice but to shrug. Compared to St Mirren, Killie, St J and even Dundee there's a choice though and arguably we're much better scrambling for a season or two and taking advantage of their inevitable downturn than chasing along because everyone else is.

We saw in the late 90s and early 00s, not just to us, what happens here long-term.

I find it incredibly hard to disagree with any of this.

Obviously, from a Well Society perspective, this "arms race" is quite a prevalent topic. I'm sure there'll be an investment update of some degree at the club AGM tomorrow night, following on from Derek Weir's update several weeks ago that there'd been notes of interest, but I'm obviously not going to post any details about any of the actual discussions going on. The Well Society are at the forefront of those discussions though and if any offer was deemed credible enough, then it would require a ballot of Society members for it then to be agreed to.

It's rarely as simple as someone just coming in and throwing some pounds our way though, obviously. When we talk about whether an offer is "credible", for some that will just mean the figures involved. For me though, as someone who's had a bit of trust flung my way by those who voted me onto the Society Board, I think there's far more to what makes an offer "credible", particularly when you are a fan-owned club with a strong sense of community values, and a fan-ownership model that has long proclaimed to be there to protect the club from falling into the wrong hands - there are a lot of "wrong hands" out there looking to invest in football at the moment.

And if someone wants to come in with an investment that is big enough to make a difference, are they likely to do so without looking for some serious input or control in the club? And if the answer is no, what does that mean for fan-ownership?

When you're a fan of a club with a current owner who you're tired or bored of, then it almost becomes an attractive option when there's an investor on the horizon by default I'd imagine. But when you're a fan-owned club, I think there's an element of "be careful what you wish for" to some degree. I have my views on that, that I and others involved in the Well Society have been expressing over the last several weeks, but there is possibly now a case for us actually just asking the members - are you hypothetically prepared to throw fan-ownership in the skip in exchange for investment?

I personally would hope the answer to that is no, particularly as there are a load of very positive things going on behind the scenes at the Society at the moment that will undoubtedly lead to an improved fan-ownership model & experience, and growth to both membership & income. But I think there's a sense that we need to be sure of that particular mandate, to avoid wasting anybody's time - including our own - when it comes to potential investment. 

Edited February 20 by JayMFC