Motherwell FC - A Thread For All Seasons

[Ludo*1]

Eric Nicholson is the biggest fucking roaster employed by DC Thomson's and that's some going considering they give Jim Spence free space to rant about nonsense.

[YassinMoutaouakil]

1 hour ago, Handsome_Devil said:

It's also worth pointing out that even at Xmas, half our fans thought Bair was utter shite and the other half thought he was shite but at least worked hard.

The level of seeth at his signing was off the charts, matched only by the total bemusement that it was a two-year deal on top.

I'm absolutely delighted for him and us at how it's gone but if history isn't being rewritten, the July-Christmas part of his spell with us is fair being ignored.

 

On 31/07/2023 at 18:37, YassinMoutaouakil said:

I think I've just about talked myself round on Bair. The fact that he's been in Canada/MLS squads relatively young, St Johnstone paid a fee for him, and their fans (okay, RandomGuy) seem to think it was a composure/confidence thing rather than a complete lack of ability means I'd probably rather have him as a 4th choice striker than another Obika/Mandron type who we know will be a 6.5/10 most weeks but not much more.

I'm putting myself forward for a seat on Ketts' I Told You So parade.

[Handsome_Devil]

7 minutes ago, YassinMoutaouakil said:

 

I'm putting myself forward for a seat on Ketts' I Told You So parade.

I mean, fair play, but "I'd rather have him as fourth choice than a guy with no legs (Obika at least)" being one of the most positive comments about him in July says it all really!

[capt_oats]

33 minutes ago, YassinMoutaouakil said:

I'm putting myself forward for a seat on Ketts' I Told You So parade.

Just had a swatch back at The Thread to find all the Theo Bair discourse.

From what I can see this was my first post on the matter:

On 28/07/2023 at 08:09, capt_oats said:

Entirely unbothered by the Bair thing. I mean clearly I’d rather we didn’t based on his entirely shite time in Perth but equally if we do and with the caveat that we are looking at bringing the Danish sensation in from Arsenal- the big lad will be our 4th/5th choice striker.

It’s not like we’ll have chucked 6 figures or whatever it was Saints paid for him.

He’ll be Mandron v2.0.

Tbh, much like @Swello I’m more interested in the other guy.

and the reactions to the announcement start here:

[RandomGuy.]

Suspect ill be getting quoted a lot in the next hour or so with laughing emojis, thanks @capt_oats

[camer0n_mcd]

On 01/08/2023 at 12:15, Swello said:

There's be so many snide comments and expectations as so low - I'm on this guy's side and I'm fully expecting him to be hitting 15 goals this season. Bookmark it*

 

 

 

*and then forget you've bookmarked it.

2 goals to go...

[capt_oats]

40 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

Suspect ill be getting quoted a lot in the next hour or so with laughing emojis, thanks @capt_oats

A pile on definitely wasn't the intention.

As others have said there were plenty of less than flattering takes flying around. At least you and the other Saints fans chipping in were commenting from the position of having watched him (albeit seemingly playing for utterly dismal managers).

[andrewh]

5 hours ago, RandomGuy. said:

Fun reading all that back, then reading Queens Park fans currently complaining about only scoring in one of their last 6 matches, an ineffective system, and shiteheart players being endlessly played.

Not surprising those who were fairly vicious in their defence of him, and lauded his form when he first went there and had a jibe at Saints fans who wanted him out, have suddenly decided to avoid all mention of it.

Sorry Motherwell fans, we’re on your forum, but this is exactly right. It’s also relevant as you see the poor management of Theo and many others by our inept managers.

[Swello]

3 hours ago, camer0n_mcd said:

2 goals to go...

''Sake! I was waiting for the big reveal for that one 

[RandomGuy.]

57 minutes ago, andrewh said:

Sorry Motherwell fans, we’re on your forum, but this is exactly right. It’s also relevant as you see the poor management of Theo and many others by our inept managers.

 

It's something I think I took for granted under Tommy Wright (and before) that we'd sign cast offs and improve them, and I'd kind of forgotten that. But it's been years since we had anyone like that.

It's relevant to Motherwell too, maybe. It seems like being able to shine shite is a major plus point in this division and it's easy find someone who can't and you suffer for it. If Kettlewell is doing that regularly then you should maybe see that as outweighing any negatives tactically. 

[Vietnam91]

7 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

It's relevant to Motherwell too, maybe. It seems like being able to shine shite is a major plus point in this division and it's easy find someone who can't and you suffer for it. If Kettlewell is doing that regularly then you should maybe see that as outweighing any negatives tactically. 

It's something we continue to do in our socials (however not as overtly as before) but probably in every academy first pro contract and guys like KVV and Theo, we'll give you a platform and won't stand in your way if you do us a turn.

I'm willing to forgive a bit of the tactical stuff with Ketts partly due to his age and this closed season will be very much his team fully. His initial success was putting round pegs in round holes, this season has been marked by much more tinkering. Having the players gee'd up at kick off is very much on him and that has been lacking.

Most of the contracts of those he inherited are up and a number are at the top end of our wage bracket. If Theo goes as rumoured for £750k plus, that equates to 4/5 first team starters on £3-3.5k p/w. Give up one player to bring in those potentials in the hope of recreating the same success in summer 2025 then I'm all for it, he has a proven he is capable. Doing well in the transfer market is the dark arts however and maybe we're buoyed by the back to back returns of KVV and Theo on and off the park.

I can't recall the last player we bought we sold for money, everyone arrived for free or were promoted from the Academy. Maybe Marvin Johnson?

[capt_oats]

16 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

It's something I think I took for granted under Tommy Wright (and before) that we'd sign cast offs and improve them, and I'd kind of forgotten that. But it's been years since we had anyone like that.

It's relevant to Motherwell too, maybe. It seems like being able to shine shite is a major plus point in this division and it's easy find someone who can't and you suffer for it. If Kettlewell is doing that regularly then you should maybe see that as outweighing any negatives tactically. 

Something that only really crossed my mind the other day when @Busta Nut was talking about this 523 is that without getting into the nuances of it it's broadly the shape that Davidson stuck with (although I'd call what we play more of a 3421).

It's interesting in so much as we seem to be getting a decent offensive output from it and Bair is thriving.

I think this summer will be another test for Kettlewell in so much as we have so many players out of contract although it'll probably me more normal than last summer when he was being asked to cut all the excess from the squad and bring our playing budget back to what our more risk-averse board were comfortable with after the seasons of bloat in the respective Robinson, Alexander and Hammell eras.

[capt_oats]

2 minutes ago, Vietnam91 said:

I can't recall the last player we bought we sold for money, everyone arrived for free or were promoted from the Academy. Maybe Marvin Johnson?

Louis Moult for one.

[Vietnam91]

5 minutes ago, capt_oats said:

Louis Moult for one.

Thought he was cross border jiggery pokery like Humphrey?

[capt_oats]

1 minute ago, Vietnam91 said:

Thought he was cross border jiggery pokery like Humphrey?

Nope.

Signed for an undisclosed fee.

https://www.motherwellfc.co.uk/2015/06/30/steelmen-sign-dragons-moult/

[RandomGuy.]

10 minutes ago, capt_oats said:

Something that only really crossed my mind the other day when @Busta Nut was talking about this 523 is that without getting into the nuances of it it's broadly the shape that Davidson stuck with (although I'd call what we play more of a 3421).

It's interesting in so much as we seem to be getting a decent offensive output from it and Bair is thriving.

Its probably because you actually have players enter *dons wankers hat* Zone 14 -

Spoiler

- so he has support to play with. Under Davidson we regularly had not a single player having a touch in that area, and the CMs were generally stuck out wide, alongside wing backs and the wingers/second strikers, creating "overloads" against the corner flag while the striker stood marked by entire defences.

You'll know better than me but it feels like the big difference between shite Bair and good Bair is the level of support around him? 

[capt_oats]

12 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

Its probably because you actually have players enter *dons wankers hat* Zone 14 -

  Reveal hidden contents

- so he has support to play with. Under Davidson we regularly had not a single player having a touch in that area, and the CMs were generally stuck out wide, alongside wing backs and the wingers/second strikers, creating "overloads" against the corner flag while the striker stood marked by entire defences.

You'll know better than me but it feels like the big difference between shite Bair and good Bair is the level of support around him? 

This absolutely makes sense. If you look at the numbers Spittal has done and latterly the impact Vale has made then that's the exact area that we're getting players into.

[Handsome_Devil]

35 minutes ago, capt_oats said:

... it'll probably me more normal than last summer when he was being asked to cut all the excess from the squad and bring our playing budget back to what our more risk-averse board were comfortable with after the seasons of bloat in the respective Robinson, Alexander and Hammell eras.

Definitely. We're back to level, which is all the realistic among us could hope for.

As a hypothetical....Season 1 goes wrong but is salvaged by spending in January and sacking the manager.

There's optimism for season 2 but probably misplaced as the budget is cut by paying off the previous season. Yes, you could over perform the pounds spent but realistically you continue to struggle. You either repeat season 1 or you get to season 3 still in the top-flight and having paid off previous errors.

We don't quite fit into that classic pattern because of when we sacked Alexander but essentially - assuming we don't collapse at least - we're close enough. Basically we've moved past the original sin - neither backing or sacking Alexander in May 22 at the cost of X hundred thousand and missing a chance to fight for Europe when Hibs and Aberdeen fucked it so badly we'll have Killie plus either St M or Dundee making it.

Summer will now determine whether we start an upward swing of the cycle or enter another survival series...

I would never confidently predict glory to come before a summer rebuild but having returned to stage zero, finally sorted a CEO, working on the strategic direction etc I think we can be cautiously hopeful the bottom has been reached and we're on the way up again.

 

Edited April 21 by Handsome_Devil

[crazylegsjoe_mfc]

Apologies, my comment about St. Johnstone being raging re Bair was meant to be flippant and jovial, I didn't mean to open such a conversation up to this extent

I've been fairly vocal in my support of Kettlewell on here despite many times I've despaired of him but there's a cynic in me that thinks Bair's success has been a bit of a fortunate accident.

I think he signed seemingly as 4th choice in a squad built for 3-5-2, then the other three get injured and we are forced to play 3-4-2-1 with him up top, then the other three get fit again and push him back down the pecking order, before he gets back in the team just as Wilkinson agrees his move away and scores twice. Then our talisman in Mika gets recalled and we struggle in our pursuit of a striker in January and all of a sudden we are full circle with 3-4-2-1 with Bair our option up top himself. I mean, I'm not going to worry too much about how we got here now that we have, but I seriously do wonder if him starting every week was ever the plan.

To answer @RandomGuy.'s question, the support definitely has been a big part of Bair's success. I think it's been a bit of a chain reaction. Since he has been firing, Ketts has brought Gent and Davor in and largely started putting round pegs in round holes. This has meant Spittal hasn't needed to play as a wing-back, or deeper in midfield. Losing Wilkinson and Mika and struggling to replace them has meant there are less attacking combinations for Ketts to tie himself in knots with. All of this has led to consistency in selection (a key factor in any success, IMO) which has seen not only Bair, but Spittal's season properly take off.

Edited April 21 by crazylegsjoe_mfc

[well fan for life]

1 hour ago, Handsome_Devil said:

Definitely. We're back to level, which is all the realistic among us could hope for.

As a hypothetical....Season 1 goes wrong but is salvaged by spending in January and sacking the manager.

There's optimism for season 2 but probably misplaced as the budget is cut by paying off the previous season. Yes, you could over perform the pounds spent but realistically you continue to struggle. You either repeat season 1 or you get to season 3 still in the top-flight and having paid off previous errors.

We don't quite fit into that classic pattern because of when we sacked Alexander but essentially - assuming we don't collapse at least - we're close enough. Basically we've moved past the original sin - neither backing or sacking Alexander in May 22 at the cost of X hundred thousand and missing a chance to fight for Europe when Hibs and Aberdeen fucked it so badly we'll have Killie plus either St M or Dundee making it.

Summer will now determine whether we start an upward swing of the cycle or enter another survival series...

I would never confidently predict glory to come before a summer rebuild but having returned to stage zero, finally sorted a CEO, working on the strategic direction etc I think we can be cautiously hopeful the bottom has been reached and we're on the way up again.

 

Even just a season of not lurching between crises would be pretty sound to start with.