Motherwell FC - A Thread For All Seasons

[Joey Jo Jo Junior Shabadoo]

13 minutes ago, Al B said:

Let's not get all revisionist regarding KVV. He has absolutely turned it round and then some and I'm asbolutely fucking delighted at that...he's been absolutely superb. But let's not lose sight of the reason people said he was shite earlier in the season, being mainly because he was shite earlier in the season.

Anyone still criticising him now needs to have a proper word with themselves (and I'm not even going to comment on people openly abusing the guy either then or now), he deserves all the praise in the world currently and he's everything a club like Motherwell could dream of at the sharp end of the team.

But all the things he's doing the right way now, he was absolutely not doing the right way previously. The fact that there was even scope for the improvement that's happened, shows that criticism wasn't wrong (albeit delivered in a very very strange way by a cross-section of absolute weirdos).

He needed to do a LOT of things differently/better, and to his absolute credit he has 100% done that (whatever his motivation for doing so might have been - better coaching/better team-mates/making a point) and is reaping the rewards, as are we.

[CoF]

Does anyone speak Daily Record? Haven’t a fucking clue what this means and I’m not clicking the link. 
 

Edited April 13, 2023 by CoF

[Swello]

2 hours ago, Al B said:

Let's not get all revisionist regarding KVV. He has absolutely turned it round and then some and I'm asbolutely fucking delighted at that...he's been absolutely superb. But let's not lose sight of the reason people said he was shite earlier in the season, being mainly because he was shite earlier in the season.

Anyone still criticising him now needs to have a proper word with themselves (and I'm not even going to comment on people openly abusing the guy either then or now), he deserves all the praise in the world currently and he's everything a club like Motherwell could dream of at the sharp end of the team.

But all the things he's doing the right way now, he was absolutely not doing the right way previously. The fact that there was even scope for the improvement that's happened, shows that criticism wasn't wrong (albeit delivered in a very very strange way by a cross-section of absolute weirdos).

He needed to do a LOT of things differently/better, and to his absolute credit he has 100% done that (whatever his motivation for doing so might have been - better coaching/better team-mates/making a point) and is reaping the rewards, as are we.

That's all well and good -but don't expect a single goal to be dedicated to you on Saturday.

 

[Busta Nut]

3 hours ago, MP_MFC said:

When exactly earlier in the season....

 

 

He then has the gap around the World cup but he's hardly alone in that, the entire team was a joke. 

Tobe fair from where yours cut off until the Last Hammell league game (I think) he had a bit of a lull.
Mind you he was expected to chase balls lumped forward with no support from the non existent midfield (f**k knows what has changed there) and the only folk up the park with him where usually a played out of position Blair Spittal, a young winger with very little football experience (who was probably still our second best player) or one of the other diddies we had 30 yards to either side of him.

It's no wonder he was looking frustrated or held on to the ball a bit longer than folk wanted, again even then I felt he was holding on to it due to lack of support.

If he'd kept his goal scoring up consistently all the way through the season he'd be on about 40 goals and folk still wouldn't be happy.

We seen it with Higgy anaw. Can't please all the people all the time.

[Londonwell]

3 hours ago, Al B said:

Let's not get all revisionist regarding KVV. He has absolutely turned it round and then some and I'm asbolutely fucking delighted at that...he's been absolutely superb. But let's not lose sight of the reason people said he was shite earlier in the season, being mainly because he was shite earlier in the season.

Anyone still criticising him now needs to have a proper word with themselves (and I'm not even going to comment on people openly abusing the guy either then or now), he deserves all the praise in the world currently and he's everything a club like Motherwell could dream of at the sharp end of the team.

But all the things he's doing the right way now, he was absolutely not doing the right way previously. The fact that there was even scope for the improvement that's happened, shows that criticism wasn't wrong (albeit delivered in a very very strange way by a cross-section of absolute weirdos).

He needed to do a LOT of things differently/better, and to his absolute credit he has 100% done that (whatever his motivation for doing so might have been - better coaching/better team-mates/making a point) and is reaping the rewards, as are we.

I wouldn’t underestimate the difference having a strike partner has made. 
 

He could be frustrating earlier in the season but to be fair to him he played in a team where there tended to not be another player within 25 yards of him. 

[Allroy for Prez]

Butcher involved in the training photos on the socials so hopefully that means he’s fit for Saturday. 

Never really rated him at Utd but what a turn he’s doing for us at the moment. 

[Doctor Manhattan]

1 hour ago, CoF said:

Does anyone speak Daily Record? Haven’t a fucking clue what this means and I’m not clicking the link. 

[Swello]

10 minutes ago, Doctor Manhattan said:

Really shite attempt at swearing.

[YassinMoutaouakil]

I remember being annoyed that that weirdo Dundee United fan who does the Football Manager ratings up here had made Butcher better than Stuart Carswell on FM13 or something. He probably got that one right, in fairness.

[CoF]

1 hour ago, Doctor Manhattan said:

Cheers. Really underwhelming story but the headline makes sense now.  

[Al B]

6 hours ago, MP_MFC said:

When exactly earlier in the season....

Essentially from when he signed, until Kettlewell took over. I've broken down my thoughts a couple of times in the past so I'm not going to labour the point again, but in a nutshell it was week after week of constantly making poor/wrong decisions, ignoring the right option, trying things that were never on and 95% of the time looking completely unwilling to take any kind of instruction. I take the point that the players he was playing alongside (or not quite beside in some cases), maybe weren't up to it but that doesn't then make trying to do it yourself the right option, especially when you aren't puilling it off. KVV smashing a shot into the stand or trundling it into the keepers hands from 30 yards when there are 3 or 4 better options on, just because he doesn't trust Connor Shields to be able to finish it from 5, is in no way the right choice.

Also for the purposes of my analysing his game, I'm not counting the penalties because we're talking about his performances as a forward player. If your left-back is the designated taker and we got 10 in a season and he tucks them all away...it would make him one of our top scorers, but would it make him one of the best attacking players at the club? Of course not. He wouldn't have a clue what to do playing up front.

As I say though, for whatever reason whether that's better coaching, actually listening to the coaching, trying to prove a point, or just making better decisions, he's now become the player that everyone including me wanted him to be. He's playing the ball at the right time instead of holding on to it, his shots are not just on target but constantly troubling the keeper, his runs and movement are WAYYYY more pro-active than the reactive player in previous months who was constantly on his heels and waiting to see what happened before he decided if he was going to make a move. KVV now is gambling, making those runs, making those movements in the anticipation that the ball might fall for him. Pre-Kettlewell he was waiting to see if it did, and then moving. That's a HUGE difference in forward play and means you are doing everything earlier and the defenders and keeper have much less time to react because they can't make a move until something happens...they can't gamble they have to wait and react to what has already happened. A striker doesn't which is why you get so much joy out of making that gamble. By the time a defender or keeper is able to react, the striker is already there ahead of them because they didn't have to wait to see what happened...they could just go and hope it did. McCoist was an absolute master at it.

Anyway, I said I wasn't going to labour the point again and I have, but anyway it's important to get the point across that my opinion was in no way anything to do with not liking him or not thinking he had ability. It was actually the opposite....100% seeing the ability that he had, but just constantly using it wrongly, or at the wrong times, or not at all. His decision making is infinitely better under Kettlewell, everyone can see the difference it's making to his game (and the side as a whole), and I'd imagine pretty much everyone can see the changes he's made so I don't think my opinion is/was in the slightest bit controversial.

People who criticised him, then he improves his all-round game significantly and noticeably, and then they continue to criticise him and refuse to give him the plaudits and credit he deserves, are the ones for the watching.

Edited April 13, 2023 by Al B

[Gianfranco]

5 year olds screaming at footballers in the stadium and Twitter users acting like 5 year olds towards KVV. 

[welldaft]

KVV is clearly a sensitive soul for such a mad Dutch bugger.  Football fans are not exactly rational people so getting wound up by some criticism is a bit lame imho. He should know the Twitter posts are not representative of most Well fans. In this case a kid that got a little out of his depth and let it go.

He has been poor this season. So has the whole team. Partly in his case because the formation and tactics under Hammell left him isolated. 

Now he has support up front and in a winning confident team he is thriving and long may it continue. When he plays to his potential he is too good for us. But the fact he has spent his time in lower leagues suggests he has underperformed compared to his obvious ability. If he continues his goal scoring exploits till end of season and gets a lucrative move. Then good for him.

I like him. I always have. He is a very good forward for a club our size. We have been lucky to have him. But hopefully we are helping him realise his potential also. 

[Kapowzer]

12 hours ago, Swello said:

He's probably got a Good List and a Bad List which he spends the long hours between training sessions ruthlessly maintaining. @Busta Nut has stuck up for him all the way through the season on here so he now qualifies for his choice of a post-match wave or a twitter like by 8pm on a Saturday night. Folk on the bad list like @joewarkfanclub will find a mysterious increase in Dutch junk mail and an unordered set meal for 8 from the chinese takeaway arriving at their door at 11pm on a Sunday.

Nobody likes a grass @Swello 

13 hours ago, crazylegsjoe_mfc said:

Kettlewell said in his Open Goal interview that he picked 3-5-2 based on the squad he had available to him.

Given the parts of this system that don't exist in any variation of 4-3-3 are the two wing backs and the second striker and we are in a situation the wing-backs are out of contract and the second striker is likely to have suitors, that could change how Kettlewell thinks for his summer activity.

It may be that he uses the same pragmatism he did to start playing 3-5-2 to see that the best players he could sign would mould the team into a different shape.

That said, if there was an intention to play with wingers at any point, I imagine McKinstry would have had some gametime by now. Even just a run-out for Spittal or Mandron when we were 3-0 up on Saturday, or I guess it could be simply that he doesn't rate McKinstry.

Mentioned this a few times, this summer he can pretty much go shopping to replace what he has or buy where he wants to be. A lot of people seem to make a big deal of a settled formation but I think being able to switch to combat the opposition should be something professional footballers can do without needing an arbitrary amount of games to "bed in" pish.

Only thing is certain, if Kev is still on the payroll he'll have a foil. Guys like Maguire (for the 4th time) and Shields will get a clean slate from a new manager to see if they can function and perform for SK. I think all of us would like to see Butcher in midfield if the game/fixture allows it.

What will be interesting is how many of the players who have not featured much under his tenure will be offered anything. Maybe because they did't fit with what he had to do to keep us up, doesn't mean they won't be part of 2023-24 and where he plans to take us.

I'm actually quite excited to see who SK targets and secures, it's odd to have such confidence and I'm under no illusion a lot of it is probably fueled by his 16 point haul that I see him as wise as Mr Miyagi. But I do feel encouraged if he needs a left footed, defensive midfielder who's good in the air for what he needs then he will source one. Securing them is a different thing. Shoe horning a guy in secured on a loan at midnight on transfer day doesn't seem his thing. Maybe County fans would disagree.

8 hours ago, Al B said:

Let's not get all revisionist regarding KVV. He has absolutely turned it round and then some and I'm asbolutely fucking delighted at that...he's been absolutely superb. But let's not lose sight of the reason people said he was shite earlier in the season, being mainly because he was shite earlier in the season.

Anyone still criticising him now needs to have a proper word with themselves (and I'm not even going to comment on people openly abusing the guy either then or now), he deserves all the praise in the world currently and he's everything a club like Motherwell could dream of at the sharp end of the team.

But all the things he's doing the right way now, he was absolutely not doing the right way previously. The fact that there was even scope for the improvement that's happened, shows that criticism wasn't wrong (albeit delivered in a very very strange way by a cross-section of absolute weirdos).

He needed to do a LOT of things differently/better, and to his absolute credit he has 100% done that (whatever his motivation for doing so might have been - better coaching/better team-mates/making a point) and is reaping the rewards, as are we.

I'm willing to say I was critical and I know I wasn't in a minority, not a get out the door ya wage thief as it seems a few on FB and Twitter were, more a haul off from 45-60 minutes and have a word with yourself. I think dodgy assist stats on transfermarkt probably contributed along with his penalty haul when tempering my view but I'd echo your posts Al. A lot of my issues were with him not looking like he gave a f**k, he may have, but didn't look like he did at times. Sitting in the stand or watching on TV and not privy to the dressing room then that goes a long way to form an opinion. Sprinkle in what looked like a lack of respect for some of his teammates at times and the decision making that went with it brought added frustration. That interview showed a lot of passion that appeared to be missing at times. Most fans will give leeway and time to a limited footballer who busts their pan in but a gifted footballer who rides the brakes helps the red mist descend. Hindsight is a powerful tool and seeing him with Shields 35 yards away to his right and McKinstry 35 yards to his left did not allow him to flourish as he has since the formation change. How many of us recognised that back then?

Everything seems to repeatedly come down to Ketts setting things up for us to play a simple game as simply as possible.

Edited April 14, 2023 by Kapowzer

[ropy]

18 hours ago, Swello said:

He's probably got a Good List and a Bad List which he spends the long hours between training sessions ruthlessly maintaining. @Busta Nut has stuck up for him all the way through the season on here so he now qualifies for his choice of a post-match wave or a twitter like by 8pm on a Saturday night. Folk on the bad list like @joewarkfanclub will find a mysterious increase in Dutch junk mail and an unordered set meal for 8 from the chinese takeaway arriving at their door at 11pm on a Sunday.

I wonder if Connor Shields has Lists.

Edited April 14, 2023 by ropy

[Handsome_Devil]

5 hours ago, Kapowzer said:

Hindsight is a powerful tool and seeing him with Shields 35 yards away to his right and McKinstry 35 yards to his left did not allow him to flourish as he has since the formation change. How many of us recognised that back then?

There were lots of folk who acknowledged his flaws then but basically said in these circumstances what more do you want from him? I didn't really disagree with those who maybe said he could pass quicker or whatever but there posts suggesting he was a problem - which given the other problems we had seemed an out there take to me even then.

It was also pointed out that under Hammell two of KVV's best performances were at Tynecastle and Perth when he had Moult right beside him.

Of course, had we persisted with Hammell and 4-3-3 you can then argue replacing KVV with a genuine lone forward would have been worth it - but it's hard to imagine that plan working out as well as what we have now.

[capt_oats]

13 hours ago, Busta Nut said:

To be fair from where yours cut off until the Last Hammell league game (I think) he had a bit of a lull.

Mind you he was expected to chase balls lumped forward with no support from the non existent midfield (f**k knows what has changed there) and the only folk up the park with him where usually a played out of position Blair Spittal, a young winger with very little football experience (who was probably still our second best player) or one of the other diddies we had 30 yards to either side of him.

It's no wonder he was looking frustrated or held on to the ball a bit longer than folk wanted, again even then I felt he was holding on to it due to lack of support.

If he'd kept his goal scoring up consistently all the way through the season he'd be on about 40 goals and folk still wouldn't be happy.

We seen it with Higgy anaw. Can't please all the people all the time.

100%.

For some folk from Day 1 they just didn't seem to like KVV's face.

It's not uncommon, it happens all the time with players and managers alike - there have been some odd takes on SO about Deano and let's not even get into the general weirdness that some people have with SOD. Invariably there's little context taken into account ie: what the instructions from the manager are, whether the shape the team is playing suits them etc.

Equally you've folk who still seem happy to put the boot into Robinson, McGhee or Alexander because of their perception of them.

There will be multitudes of reasons for that either way it probably colours how accepting of flaws they are and in this specific case that's not really Kev's fault it's about their own expectations and what they want from him.

Let's face it if you're playing #9 for Motherwell then there will be flaws and rough edges. 

In that respect it's no different to some of the takes doubling down on Higdon that seemed utterly wild at the time but even more so now.

Similarly people were probably more forgiving of Moult because he was a personable guy that you'd have round for tea and he looked like he put a shift in. I mean, the version of Moult who arrived had Wes Fletcher playing ahead of him, the version who left had (some) Motherwell fans taking train journeys to Preston to watch him.

Having said that I'm still quite surprised how close it is in terms of the rate of league goals scored:

• Michael Higdon - 40 in 72 = 0.55 goals per game
• Louis Moult (2 spells) - 39 in 91 = 0.428 GPG
• Kevin Van Veen - 27 in 63 = 0.428 GPG
• Chris Porter - 23 in 59 = 0.38 GPG
• John Sutton - (2 spells) - 66 in 174 = 0.37 GPG
• Scott McDonald (2 spells) - 66 in 191 = 0.34 GPG
• James McFadden (3 spells) - 37 in 112 = 0.33 GPG

Edited April 14, 2023 by capt_oats

[eliphas]

I've been a big KVV fan since he came in whereas my Dad has probably been on the fence and definitely went to 'waste of space territory' for a while 

In general, I'd say for most people when you like/dislike a player it boils down to

1. Skill

2. Perceived effort.

Some people can look past the player who seems to not be trying because you enjoy the bits of skill and moments he has or you know something will eventually happen. Others can't and as soon as things don't start working AND they look like they aren't trying then they completely sign out.

I'd wager most of the KVV 'haters' are the latter.

[Handsome_Devil]

I guess there's maybe some perceived annoyance towards him for downing tools late in the Hammell era - not attractive, if true, but if true he certainly wasn't the only one.

And even if Europe turned into a farce, it should be acknowledged he basically dragged us over the line from his sick bed with the sub appearances v County and Hearts - so while he may make the odd bad footballing decision, as our players do, I still have down as a general good egg.

An opinion which may change when he goes on strike for us blocking his £2m move to China in summer mind, but until then...

[Casagolda]

14 hours ago, Londonwell said:

I wouldn’t underestimate the difference having a strike partner has made. 

Aye I think this is a key part.

Even last week, I seen a few folk say Mandron was shite. However he links the play between Goss and Furlong for the 1st goal. At the 2nd he comes short for the throw and lays it off for Johnston to fire over the top for Van Veen. 

In both instances if Van Veen is the one playing with his back to goal and being the link up man, he’s not scoring those goals. It was the same for his goals against St Mirren and Ross County, Obika is the one dropping deep linking the play allowing Van Veen to drift into the box. 

I mind when we discussed the possibility of a 352 on here and it felt like Van Veen would work well with a Shields/Efford type buzzing off him. When in reality, it feels like having a target man alongside him has taken a weight off him and we’re subsequently seeing the best of him as a result.