Motherwell FC - A Thread For All Seasons

[Handsome_Devil]

24 minutes ago, Casagolda said:

I mind when we discussed the possibility of a 352 on here and it felt like Van Veen would work well with a Shields/Efford type buzzing off him. When in reality, it feels like having a target man alongside him has taken a weight off him and we’re subsequently seeing the best of him as a result. 

Agree totally - and that's one that even his fans maybe didn't see coming, at least to this extent.

I think when KVV is big(ish) and slow(ish), it was a logical assumption that he'd stay the target and we wanted legs around him. Apparently wrong, very wrong!

[capt_oats]

17 minutes ago, Handsome_Devil said:

I guess there's maybe some perceived annoyance towards him for downing tools late in the Hammell era - not attractive, if true, but if true he certainly wasn't the only one.

And even if Europe turned into a farce, it should be acknowledged he basically dragged us over the line from his sick bed with the sub appearances v County and Hearts - so while he may make the odd bad footballing decision, as our players do, I still have down as a general good egg.

I suppose there's also a slight double standard there as well given that some of our more beloved players over the past 30 years were part of dressing rooms who could equally have been accused of downing tools to get shot of a manager.

Without wanting to sound like a KVV Stan your point about him basically dragging us over the line last season is another thing that I've found curious when he's had questions asked of his 'attitude'.

I mean, he played through that Aberdeen game with one functioning arm during Alexander's time and he was basically run into the ground by both GA and Hammell (who he also played through injury for as well).

He's played the most minutes of any outfield player this season and 3rd most last season:

[Kapowzer]

Revisionist history based on current form has ensured many have forgotten or overlook the "one good game in 3/4/5" and "Kev only performs if its on the telly" chat which was a thing and prolifient on here. Some of it tongue in cheek but not without a degree of merit to the premise.

SK has played KvV in the best way to get the maximum return and only the biggest walloper would want Kev to fail to reinforce their prior views. Obika has been the ideal partner and remember he was one of the last Hammy appointments. Was the plan to use him as effectively or change things to where we are now? Unlikely based on the games between the window and Raith and his sacking which were from the "f**k it, it'll be a laugh" school of throwing the whole bench on. So SK has both identified and got the best out of Kev by doing something that few of us saw, I suppose that's why he's a manager and we bump keys on here thinking we should be.

[crazylegsjoe_mfc]

13 hours ago, Al B said:

Also for the purposes of my analysing his game, I'm not counting the penalties because we're talking about his performances as a forward player. If your left-back is the designated taker and we got 10 in a season and he tucks them all away...it would make him one of our top scorers, but would it make him one of the best attacking players at the club? Of course not. He wouldn't have a clue what to do playing up front.

This is something that @Busta Nut often digs me up on - I agree with you regarding this.

I want a number 9 to demand to hit penalties, you want them to obsess over their goal tally, breed more confidence from hitting the back of the net etc. Being a good penalty taker is a great skill in itself, but it's a different skill from being a good striker, unless every penalty they score is denying them personally a clear goalscoring opportunity.

Earlier in the season, Shankland got MOTM when he scored 3 goals, 2 of which were penalties, 1 of which he was lucky enough to get to take again after he missed. That just seems flawed to me. 

Funnily enough, Shankland is on 18 Premiership goals with 9 pens and Van Veen is on 18 goals with 6 pens, which puts Kev a fair bit in front of Shankland for me. 

Just in case there is any doubt, if you're reading this Kev, I love you big man. Your goal tally is fantastic with and without penalties.

[thisGRAEME]

Not a nip at anyone here at all, but "yeah but if you take away the penalties" is my favourite gripe of people, as if they somehow count less towards results, points and tallies.

[Handsome_Devil]

31 minutes ago, thisGRAEME said:

Not a nip at anyone here at all, but "yeah but if you take away the penalties" is my favourite gripe of people, as if they somehow count less towards results, points and tallies.

Yesssssss...but it does need to be factored in when considering performance at times.

Our favourite torn face Chris Long had 12 goals, I think, when the COVID season stopped in March. Donnelly had scored several penalties earlier in the season and given Long almost took the net off taking them in later shoot-outs, he could easily have instead been at 16/17 - ie well on track for the mythical 20 goal season.

Would that have changed his perception among the support? Probably. Should it? Less convinced...fair play had he scored the pens but his general play wouldn't have changed.

If your midfielder, full back, whatever is the best penalty taker they take the pens...the expectations for the striker's total just gets adjusted accordingly.

An old firm striker hitting 20 but with 10 penalties included on the other hand would probably be considered under-performing.

[well fan for life]

3 hours ago, Handsome_Devil said:

I guess there's maybe some perceived annoyance towards him for downing tools late in the Hammell era - not attractive, if true, but if true he certainly wasn't the only one.

And even if Europe turned into a farce, it should be acknowledged he basically dragged us over the line from his sick bed with the sub appearances v County and Hearts - so while he may make the odd bad footballing decision, as our players do, I still have down as a general good egg.

An opinion which may change when he goes on strike for us blocking his £2m move to China in summer mind, but until then...

Tbf the end of Hammell's time I don't blame him for chucking it. Thanklessly chasing long balls or hoping Conor Shields miraculously turned into a winger. 

Which is before I even mention Hammell going galaxy brain and chucking him at LWB at Raith Rovers. 

I think we'd all chucked it at that point. 

[YassinMoutaouakil]

I like Kevin Van Veen. I think he's a good player. 

[LiviLion]

43 minutes ago, YassinMoutaouakil said:

I like Kevin Van Veen. I think he's a good player. 

 

[Busta Nut]

PENS DON'T COUNT!!!

[eliphas]

Free pass for anyone who misses them then? 

[Kapowzer]

2 hours ago, Busta Nut said:

PENS DON'T COUNT!!!

Micky Loveeeeeeee!

Edited April 14, 2023 by Kapowzer

[crazylegsjoe_mfc]

For me, even on the days where Van Veen was doing the work of two people, was isolated etc, I still would have said he has been our best player all the season. Penney maybe rivalled him prior to the World Cup, but his form went off a cliff afterwards.

Regarding the penalties - it's possible to be a good striker, a good penalty taker, or both. Fortunately for us, Van Veen is both.

Penalties absolutely count - but they also give context. If you were trying to add a midfielder who could score double figures in to your midfield, would you go out and sign Mark O'Hara, who has 7 penalties from his 10 goals?

Edited April 14, 2023 by crazylegsjoe_mfc

[Quatermass]

He’s not scared to get in about opposition players or try to wind them up. I always like to see that so I’ve been a ‘fan’ of his work much more than I haven’t. Imo we are very lucky to have him. Players with a 20+ goal a season for us are very rare and should be celebrated. I reckon he has 7 games left for us then he is off. As long as it’s to another country then I hope he tears it up at his next Club as well.

It does make you wonder what could have happened with a Kettlewell appointment at the start of the season but that was NEVER on the cards. I’m just content that we are staying up as I was utterly convinced not that long ago we were off to the Championship and then knows what next. It seemed completely implausible that come April we would be in 8th with an outside crack at the top six as the split approaches. I’m just going to continue enjoying that and the potential of a run of meaningless fixtures in the ‘worst case scenario’ to end the season. Whilst I heavily doff my cap to the new manager and Butcher, I have just as much thanks and relief that KVV has been playing for us for the last couple of months in particular. 

Edited April 14, 2023 by Quatermass

[Al B]

10 hours ago, thisGRAEME said:

Not a nip at anyone here at all, but "yeah but if you take away the penalties" is my favourite gripe of people, as if they somehow count less towards results, points and tallies.

 

7 hours ago, Busta Nut said:

PENS DON'T COUNT!!!

If it could be guaranteed that he'd save every penalty he faced, we cool with having Aaron Chapman back?

Or does penalty success only count sometimes?

Find me a coach that counts penalties in their assessment of a forward players ability at being a forward player, or a keepers ability at being a keeper, and i'll show you an out of work coach. 

Edited April 14, 2023 by Al B

[Busta Nut]

8 minutes ago, Al B said:

 

If it could be guaranteed that he'd save every penalty he faced, we cool with having Aaron Chapman back?

Or does penalty success only count sometimes?

I am a fan of all penalty successes.

[thisGRAEME]

32 minutes ago, Al B said:

Find me a coach that counts penalties in their assessment of a forward players ability at being a forward player, or a keepers ability at being a keeper, and i'll show you an out of work coach. 

I just burst out laughing because the first manager that came to mind was Graham Alexander, given his penalty success rate. 

[YassinMoutaouakil]

Came across this earlier when googling something and I'd really like to have been a fly on the wall when the bold Connor tried out this bit of patter towards KVV. Lead balloons come to mind.

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/local-sport/motherwell-boss-wound-kevin-van-28177967

[RandomGuy.]

7 hours ago, Al B said:

 

Find me a coach that counts penalties in their assessment of a forward players ability at being a forward player, or a keepers ability at being a keeper, and i'll show you an out of work coach. 

Maybe some people use them to judge mental aspects of a player? And it can be a good way to see a players ball striking action too.

If someones slotting every penalty into the top corner thats better to see that someone whos sclaffs one wide 50% of the time.

Same with keepers, easy way to see how they are in terms of explosive agility. Are they quick at going from a standing start to diving wide? Or they slow to get down?

Edited April 15, 2023 by RandomGuy.

[eliphas]

If you just discount or ignore an ability to successfully score, or successfully save penalties then you aren't doing your job as a coach. 

It's clearly not the be all and end all but it's a factor for the players involved 100%

In my humble opinion of course.