Scottish Cup Format Changes

[HibeeJibee]

SFA has announced changes to the Scottish Cup in its early stages:

 

http://www.scottishfa.co.uk/scottish_fa_news.cfm?page=2986&newsID=16387&newsCategoryID=1

 

 

The dates and participating clubs for the 2016/17 William Hill Scottish Cup have been confirmed.

From this season, non-professional game club entrants will participate in the preliminary rounds of the competition, with all clubs not currently in possession of a Licence participating in the first preliminary round ties, along with three licensed clubs from the non-professional game.

Preliminary Round One will take place on Saturday, 13 August with Preliminary Round Two being played on Saturday, 3 September.

The first round of the competition will be played on Saturday, 24 September, featuring the professional game entrants.

 

 

Until now licensed non-league clubs entered in the First Round and all clubs were supposed to get licensed by this summer. Two clubs failed to achieve that but one of them (St Cuthbert Wanderers) would have qualified anyway as South of Scotland League champions. However the other (Newton Stewart) are also still participating according to the listing. Perhaps sympathy was felt when it was only a single club that would miss out!

 

More significantly all licensed non-league clubs outside the Highland and Lowland leagues will now have to take their chances over two preliminary rounds alongside Newton Stewart, St Cuthbert, and the champions of various eligible leagues and cups. They will no longer start in the First Round.

 

Those clubs are Burntisland, Coldstream (EOS League); Edusport, Threave, Wigtown (SOS League); Golspie (North Caledonian); Banks o'Dee, Girvan, Linlithgow (Juniors); Glasgow Uni (Amateurs). Three of them will begin in the First Preliminary Round - two rounds earlier than they used to. It doesn't say which so perhaps they will be randomly drawn. Rest will begin in the Second Preliminary Round - one round earlier than they used to.

 

Unlicensed clubs will begin in the First Preliminary Round.

 

Six clubs will progress from the Second Preliminary Round into the competition proper.

 

 

So in effect the Scottish Cup proper is now limited to SPFL / Highland / Lowland clubs; plus 6 clubs who will 'qualify' by progressing through from the preliminary rounds.

[TheMessiah]

So it's basically just a lite version of the FA cup now then?

[DA Baracus]

Oh good, we now get even more restriction on who we can potentially play. Yay

[NorthernLights]

Any idea when the first draw will be?

[HibeeJibee]

To my mind it seems very harsh on clubs who've invested in obtaining licenses but haven't joined or reached HL/LL.

 

Btw - if the 'most unlucky' three licensed clubs are drawn randomly, Club A who finished below Club B may nevertheless enter a round after them .

 

 

So it's basically just a lite version of the FA cup now then?

 

Only very loosely and if so it's surpassed that. In the FA Cup some 40 clubs join 24 Conference teams in QR4, then 32 winners join 48 EFL1/EFL in R1.

 

 

Oh good, we now get even more restriction on who we can potentially play. Yay

 

It doesn't actually change the number of non-league clubs progressing into the Second Round proper and beyond - but it does reduce the variety of leagues and tiers they'll come from: even if none drew each other and they'd a 50% success rate you would only see 3 clubs outwith SPFL/HL/LL in R2.

 

 

Any idea when the first draw will be?

 

Both preliminary rounds were drawn together on July 10th last season.

[debian]

Newton Stewart have their licensing meeting on the 15th August. It was meant to be earlier but SFA could not manage this timescale. ðŸ‘

[HibeeJibee]

Are they expecting to pass on that occasion?

 

As someone said in another thread until recently there was still no cover, you could see in from outside and the changing room had been questioned. Fair enough if so. Although last season no grace was given (e.g. Civil Service Strollers entered in the preliminaries despite actually receiving their licence in July).

 

 

I notice on SFA website (if correct) that in June the inspectors refused St Cuthbert's on their Ground but passed their Team and Legal/Admin/Finance. Newton were refused on all 3:

 

http://www.scottishfa.co.uk/resources/documents/ClubLicensing/2015/310516CL%20current%20status.pdf

 

 

Good luck, anyway.

[Ranaldo Bairn]

I see LTHV have missed out entirely this year, not even getting access to the Preliminary rounds.

 

Under what guise did they get in last year? Were the EOS winners or something like that?

[HibeeJibee]

I see LTHV have missed out entirely this year, not even getting access to the Preliminary rounds.

 

Under what guise did they get in last year? Were the EOS winners or something like that?

 

Indeed. They won EOSL 2yrs running - latter preceding last season's epic run from PR1 to R3 - but finished runners-up to Leith Athletic.

 

 

Teams can qualify by winning 3 Junior Superleagues, East of Scotland League or South of Scotland League. Also the Junior Cup or Amateur Cup. If someone does the Junior double - or an SFA member wins any of them - the runners-up are not eligible.

 

 

Things will get harder for these qualifiers too, now quality sides like Banks o'Dee, Linlithgow and Edusport have been dropped to the preliminaries. (Assuming that Edusport's Frenchmen are over here for August. In the SOS League they have previously used Scots for the first month and results worsened).

[Kicker Conspiracy]

I see LTHV have missed out entirely this year, not even getting access to the Preliminary rounds.

 

Under what guise did they get in last year? Were the EOS winners or something like that?

 

Exactly that. 

[HTG]

Fair to say that there is every chance Preliminary Round 2 will be a far tougher gig than Round 1 proper. Linlithgow reaping what they've sown in terms of refusing to engage with the pyramid after getting a licence but you have to feel for Banks o Dee who are being completely blocked by the Highland League. I'm surprised they're not kicking up f**k about it. Our lot are far too toadying to do something like that (or anything really).

[HibeeJibee]

Equally you've got clubs in the pyramid (Threave, Edusport, Wigtown, Coldstream, Burntisland) who've invested in licences and now must fight each other and champion qualifiers.

EDIT: In quality terms you'd expect Auchinleck, Banks o'Dee, Beith, Bonnyrigg, Leith and Linlithgow to progress - maybe a wildcard chance for Colville Park or one of the SOS teams like St Cuthbert, Edusport if Frenchmen present, or Threave if they recruit better players a level down; but of course they may draw each other in PR1 or PR2.

[invergowrie arab]

I just looked up what edusport is. How the f**k are they persuading people to part with 15 grand a year to play  against plumbers and sparkies?

[HTG]

11 hours ago, HibeeJibee said:

Equally you've got clubs in the pyramid (Threave, Edusport, Wigtown, Coldstream, Burntisland) who've invested in licences and now must fight each other and champion qualifiers.

EDIT: In quality terms you'd expect Auchinleck, Banks o'Dee, Beith, Bonnyrigg, Leith and Linlithgow to progress - maybe a wildcard chance for Colville Park or one of the SOS teams like St Cuthbert, Edusport if Frenchmen present, or Threave if they recruit better players a level down; but of course they may draw each other in PR1 or PR2.

I'm biased of course but this format really favours those in the HL and LL. Now, I don't have a problem with that for the most part BUT ... the HL has done pretty much nothing to merit being moved forward to the extent it has. The format and content of the league remains as it was before the LL was even thought of. It has blocked clubs from accessing it so to push clubs who might want to come on board into 2 preliminary rounds whilst it protects a club like Rothes who were tanked up and down the place last seasonmust be galling for Banks o Dee and Golspie. 

I'm not sure licenced clubs outside the LL and HL should be pushed out like this until or unless both of these leagues have a clear and cogent way in or out at both ends. 

[HibeeJibee]

1 hour ago, invergowrie arab said:

I just looked up what edusport is. How the f**k are they persuading people to part with 15 grand a year to play  against plumbers and sparkies?

It's mainly - maybe all - Frenchmen. Colloquial story I've heard is that their typical client is a second-generation immigrant whose father has become a doctor, lawyer, or whatever and has the money to let Pierre chase his dream of becoming a professional footballer in an effort to better themselves. They loan boys out too - Edusport players often pop-up on loan at Junior, LL and sometimes SPFL1 & SPFL2 clubs (often their Development League squads in the latter case). We've had a few in the U20s at Berwick. They had lots at Selkirk at one time.

I suppose the litmus test longer-term will be how many go on to professional careers - but remember they're delivering an experience and educational service as well as football.

They also get English lessons. Two years ago (the first season in the South of Scotland League) they lived in Hamilton, trained at Ravenscraig and learnt English in Coatbridge - they played at Hamilton Palace. Last season they lived and learnt in Glasgow, trained at Lesser Hampden - they played at Annan Athletic. They also started a second "campus" (playing in the Lowland-EOS U20s league), living and learning in Edinburgh, training and playing at Spartans.

Certainly no mugs in non-league terms. Finished 5th in SOS league two seasons ago and runners-up last season; won several local cups down there and appeared in several finals; South Challenge Cup Qfs two seasons ago and Sfs last season; Edinburgh campus finished 4th in LL-EOS U20s league and beat Dumbarton in the Youth Cup.

Training daily they're fit, technically proficient and familiar with each other as a team.

[invergowrie arab]

That money for Teaching them football in the LL pales into insignificance if they charge 15K to teach them English in Coatbridge.

[HTG]

31 minutes ago, 8MileBU said:

 

Even if the rules were changed tomorrow, I'm not sure your licensed club would be able to field a team in their current state!

 

Obviously trying to look beyond the travails of my lot. Anyway, you could loan us 3 if we needed them. 

[craigkillie]

4 hours ago, HTG said:

I'm biased of course but this format really favours those in the HL and LL. Now, I don't have a problem with that for the most part BUT ... the HL has done pretty much nothing to merit being moved forward to the extent it has. The format and content of the league remains as it was before the LL was even thought of. It has blocked clubs from accessing it so to push clubs who might want to come on board into 2 preliminary rounds whilst it protects a club like Rothes who were tanked up and down the place last seasonmust be galling for Banks o Dee and Golspie. 

I'm not sure licenced clubs outside the LL and HL should be pushed out like this until or unless both of these leagues have a clear and cogent way in or out at both ends. 

I agree with you about the Highland League.  They should be forced to either introduce relegation, or at the very least let licensed teams join.  It's not good enough to just say "we can't have more teams" or whatever.  If you're willing to accept the advantages of the pyramid (the chance of promotion, entry to the League Cup and Challenge Cup, and now entry to R1 of the Scottish Cup), then you have to also take the disadvantages in terms of the chance of getting relegated.

I don't think the same applies to the Lowland League though.  The licensed clubs outside the Lowland League have had ample opportunity to get into that league, either via application or promotion.  Those clubs are where they are because they're either not good enough (Burntisland, Coldstream etc) or unwilling to take part (Linlithgow, Threave etc).

I think it's a positive step for the pyramid that the SFA are starting to reward clubs for their involvement, but that will only be the case if they are also willing to do a bit more to get the Highland League to open up, and to get the Lowland League and the Juniors talking.

[cmontheloknow]

Colville Park might win a tie or two if the draw's favourable. Usually they have players playing well below their level.

[HibeeJibee]

7 hours ago, craigkillie said:

I don't think the same applies to the Lowland League though.  The licensed clubs outside the Lowland League have had ample opportunity to get into that league, either via application or promotion.  Those clubs are where they are because they're either not good enough (Burntisland, Coldstream etc) or unwilling to take part (Linlithgow, Threave etc).

Equally you've got someone like Edusport - who have obtained their licence, applied for LL vacancies but been unsuccessful and were unable to obtain promotion to LL because they finished behind someone who hasn't obtained their licence. Instead of entering in R1, they are now finding themselves entering in PR1 or PR2, ironically enough beside (or potentially even a round before in Threave/Wigtown's cases) the like of: St Cuthbert Wanderers who finished above them but haven't obtained a licence; Threave who were in LL but resigned; Wigtown who finished behind them; and Newton Stewart who finished 7 places behind them and aren't licensed.