ayrmad Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 7 minutes ago, Ya Bezzer! said: The whole point of democracy is that you can change your mind, reserve a decision, remove an MP, alter the course of events. This idea that a referendum result was set in stone and must now be passed no matter what is completely undemocratic. At the very least the final deal after negotiations have been concluded should be passed either by parliament or another referendum. It's absolute insanity to commit to a course of action when you do not even know what the course of action will be. What happens if say 2 years down the line 55%, 60%, 65% of the population are against leaving under the terms of the conclusion of the final deal? Leave won the referendum but only by a tiny margin and I think there is enough evidence to suggest that lots of people have or will change their mind when the full repercussions become clearer. Aye, once we leave and things change, we can then decide if we want another referendum to rejoin, when we vote a government in on 37% of a far lower turnout we're stuck with them for 5 years, we don't get a few months of suck it and see, the major parties in the UK and Scotland could suffer dire consequences if they choose the wrong course of action. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baxter Parp Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 8 minutes ago, Peppino Impastato said: 17.4 million people voted leave. More than have voted for any UK government ever. It's hardly a fkn opinion polls. Proportionally less than those who voted no to Scottish Independence. Should we never rerun that referendum if opinion changes? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peppino Impastato Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 Top cat in Scotland almost certainly yes. And Welsh as well. ?.that's why the result had to be respected and we didn't leave the UK. Would have thought that was obvious. Not leaving the European is not respecting the result of the European referendum. If in future a party wins per on a manifesto to rejoin or hold a referendum on rejoining if they can get it through parliament that's what we do. For example like the snp saying indy ref in the event of brevity, and winning a fucking election on tat basis. No comparison to not respecting the result of the European referendum as is being proposed on ere. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ya Bezzer! Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 5 minutes ago, ayrmad said: Aye, once we leave and things change, we can then decide if we want another referendum to rejoin, when we vote a government in on 37% of a far lower turnout we're stuck with them for 5 years, we don't get a few months of suck it and see, the major parties in the UK and Scotland could suffer dire consequences if they choose the wrong course of action. The difference is in 5 years time you get the opportunity to change the government. This decision is a final one. Even if we were to leave, then vote to re-join, that decision would not be in our hands. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayrmad Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 1 minute ago, Ya Bezzer! said: The difference is in 5 years time you get the opportunity to change the government. This decision is a final one. Even if we were to leave, then vote to re-join, that decision would not be in our hands. And. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peppino Impastato Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 What people are proposing here is the same as if on September 19th 2014 the snp ad said we lost the referendum but are going to become independent anyway. Which, as well as being the complete opposite of democracy, would have lead to the fall of the snp government, possibly dissolution of the Scottish parliament, and probable violence on the streets. What people are also proposing with another referendum is like yes wining in 2014, spending two years negotiating the terms of independence then having another referendum on that deal. Nonsensical, the UK government have a mandate and instruction from the public to leave the eu, nothing more, nothing less. To do anything else is flagrantly undemocratic. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ya Bezzer! Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 Just now, ayrmad said: And. Then the final decision should be made when the full details and repercussion of the separation are known. Pretty simple. Give the people the final say, that's democracy. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayrmad Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 11 minutes ago, Baxter Parp said: We all know that. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loondave1 Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 As far as I'm concerned we have voted to make our bed and shit in it.Time to climb in.Democracy is the freedom to make dumb ass decisions and see them carried out. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 3 minutes ago, Peppino Impastato said: Top cat in Scotland almost certainly yes. And Welsh as well. ?.that's why the result had to be respected and we didn't leave the UK. Would have thought that was obvious. Not leaving the European is not respecting the result of the European referendum. If in future a party wins per on a manifesto to rejoin or hold a referendum on rejoining if they can get it through parliament that's what we do. For example like the snp saying indy ref in the event of brevity, and winning a fucking election on tat basis. No comparison to not respecting the result of the European referendum as is being proposed on ere. It could be many years before negotiations are concluded about Brexit, and the economic circumstances and public opinion could be entirely different. It would be insane to be bound to public opinion on one day 5 or 10 years ago. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayrmad Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 Just now, Ya Bezzer! said: Then the final decision should be made when the full details and repercussion of the separation are known. Pretty simple. Give the people the final say, that's democracy. In which GE have we ever had the comfort of waiting for full details and repercussions before we decide if we really want that party to run the Government, it's not simple it's nonsensical. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambomo Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 2 minutes ago, Peppino Impastato said: What people are proposing here is the same as if on September 19th 2014 the snp ad said we lost the referendum but are going to become independent anyway. Which, as well as being the complete opposite of democracy, would have lead to the fall of the snp government, possibly dissolution of the Scottish parliament, and probable violence on the streets. What people are also proposing with another referendum is like yes wining in 2014, spending two years negotiating the terms of independence then having another referendum on that deal. Nonsensical, the UK government have a mandate and instruction from the public to leave the eu, nothing more, nothing less. To do anything else is flagrantly undemocratic. No it isn't. The distinction here is that the EU ref is non-binding. The UK government, despite what they say, are not obliged to put the results of the ref into motion. They can simply say that they will take the nations feelings on board when planning policy for the UK. So for example, people were worried about the impact of foreigners on local services - we will use this to plan local services better. There is nothing that says they have to put Brexit in motion. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strichener Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 Just now, welshbairn said: It could be many years before negotiations are concluded about Brexit, and the economic circumstances and public opinion could be entirely different. It would be insane to be bound to public opinion on one day 5 or 10 years ago. And yet that is exactly what happened to the UK when it voted to join the EEC. The UK has never voted to be a member of the EU and yet since 1993 we have been stuck with it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ya Bezzer! Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 Just now, ayrmad said: In which GE have we ever had the comfort of waiting for full details and repercussions before we decide if we really want that party to run the Government, it's not simple it's nonsensical. General Elections are not a final decision on who rules the country. Also you don't hold a general election years before a new government and new intake of MPs goes to parliament, between which a whole new set of circumstances that would influence the elections results could occur. There is no parallel between general elections and referendums. If you don't understand the difference then I'm afraid you don't understand the topic. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacksgranda Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 10 minutes ago, strichener said: And yet that is exactly what happened to the UK when it voted to join the EEC. The UK has never voted to be a member of the EU and yet since 1993 we have been stuck with it. We may not have voted to join (the EEC as was), but we voted not to leave it back in 1975. I don't recall any hue and cry from the "losers" back then. How did that vote break down per country? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strichener Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 (edited) 18 minutes ago, Jacksgranda said: We may not have voted to join (the EEC as was), but we voted not to leave it back in 1975. I don't recall any hue and cry from the "losers" back then. How did that vote break down per country? Yes, the "we" that you speak about does not include anyone born after 1957. By my rough estimate, that equates to approx 25% of the current UK population (that have voted on the EEC) Edited November 3, 2016 by strichener clarifying the 25% 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peppino Impastato Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 Jamborno legal non binding but morally and politically 100% binding. The UK operates according to constitutional convention and precedent, this would be entirely unconventional and unprecedented and undermine parliament itself. If the result can be ignored teres no point in holding referenda ever at all. Welsh bairn no it can't, may as said article 50 to be triggered end of march that gives two years which can be extended by about 6 months. This may delay it slightly but we still leave in this parliament either way. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerberus Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 The UK shat it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 (edited) 28 minutes ago, Peppino Impastato said: Welsh bairn no it can't, may as said article 50 to be triggered end of march that gives two years which can be extended by about 6 months. This may delay it slightly but we still leave in this parliament either way. There's nothing about 6 months in article 50, only that the negotiations can be extended if all parties agree. Edited November 3, 2016 by welshbairn 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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