New clubs in the East of Scotland

[San Starko Rover]

A lot of Elgin's players tend to be from the central belt so they aren't necessarily travelling from Elgin as a team for those games or even able to train together regularly as a full squad. Will be interesting to see how keen League 2 clubs still are on national divisions for part-time players if Brora Rangers crash the party.

So they’re still traveling the same distance to play home games then. League 2 fans are totally in favour of playing nationally and adding Brora won’t change that. It’s normally fans of teams at higher levels who suggest regional leagues and are normally told League 2 teams are perfectly happy playing nationally and have zero interest in regional leagues.

[Burnieman]

Honestly if players and clubs can’t travel from West Lothian to Berwick they’re really not cut out for Senior football. Scotland is not a big country

No but there are still valid concerns on the cost of travel at such a low level of senior football often played in front of 50 fans or less. I hear one or two borders clubs have voiced concerns about the possible inclusion of Forfar West End, buses aren't cheap, nor is petrol money, plus it takes up your whole day. Not so much concern for one game per season, but how many may follow from Tayside.

[San Starko Rover]

No but there are still valid concerns on the cost of travel at such a low level of senior football often played in front of 50 fans or less. I hear one or two borders clubs have voiced concerns about the possible inclusion of Forfar West End, buses aren't cheap, nor is petrol money, plus it takes up your whole day. Not so much concern for one game per season, but how many may follow from Tayside.

Forfar West End should be redirected to the Highland League to find a solution to them joining the pyramid adding Tayside teams to the EOSFL and Lowland League is utter madness if it happens.

[Pyramidic]

2 hours ago, invergowrie arab said:

Are Oban Saints South of "the line" ?

Perhaps a better example is Campbeltown Pupils AFC

If Campbeltown join the WOSFL, Harthill would face a 3 hour 26 mins journey covering 158.8 miles.

 

[Burnieman]

Forfar West End should be redirected to the Highland League to find a solution to them joining the pyramid adding Tayside teams to the EOSFL and Lowland League is utter madness if it happens.

Yip, agree.

[Pyramidic]

8 minutes ago, Burnieman said:

No but there are still valid concerns on the cost of travel at such a low level of senior football often played in front of 50 fans or less. I hear one or two borders clubs have voiced concerns about the possible inclusion of Forfar West End, buses aren't cheap, nor is petrol money, plus it takes up your whole day. Not so much concern for one game per season, but how many may follow from Tayside.

Not really a problem if the bottom tier is regionalised. We need to build pyramids at the lowest levels not towers.

[FairWeatherFan]

3 minutes ago, Pyramidic said:

Not really a problem if the bottom tier is regionalised. We need to build pyramids at the lowest levels not towers.

Who says the EoSFL has to be the bottom of the pyramid?

[Burnieman]

Not really a problem if the bottom tier is regionalised. We need to build pyramids at the lowest levels not towers.

Agree, but once the border club comes out of the regional bottom tier you're still at a low level, perhaps tier 7 or 8 and still have 30 or 40 fans but could end up in a league with 4 or 5 Tayside clubs. It's easy to say that clubs should "man up it's senior football" but that doesn't pay the costs.

That said I think EoS clubs are comfortable with the travelling they have as things stand, I've not heard any calls for regionalisation. The inclusion of Tayside would maybe change that.

[LongTimeLurker]

8 minutes ago, San Starko Rover said:

....League 2 fans are totally in favour of playing nationally and adding Brora won’t change that.....

It was the clubs I was talking about who have to deal with the logistics involved not the fans. Midweek games in Elgin or Peterhead are already highly problematic for part-time players from the central belt that need to work the next day. Brora could push it beyond breaking point. 

National divisions only work for small part-time clubs in Scotland because so much of the population is concentrated in the central belt and such large subsidies are received from the SPFL.

At tier 6, Oban or Campbelltown are unlikely to ever feature in the WoS because of the issue of midweek travel, and Forfar would really be stretching things in an EoS context given Borders clubs were not a factor in an east superleague context.

Probably doable with the lower tiers regionalised in an east region sort of way as many of the clubs from the geographical extremes are less likely to feature at tiers 6 and 7 and floodlights can now be used more sensibly but the concerns people express are understandable.

[AlanCamelonfan]

36 minutes ago, patriot1 said:

Absolutely. Really annoys me when people assume we’d be happy if a midland league was formed.
 

I’m just frustrated that three years in and we still haven’t had a trip to Tweedmouth.

In the first eosfl me and mrs went to the game at st Andrew's then had dinner in the town made a day of it 

[San Starko Rover]

It was the clubs I was talking about who have to deal with the logistics involved not the fans. Midweek games in Elgin or Peterhead are already highly problematic for part-time players from the central belt that need to work the next day. Brora could push it beyond breaking point. 
National divisions only work for small part-time clubs in Scotland because so much of the population is concentrated in the central belt and such large subsidies are received from the SPFL.
At tier 6, Oban or Campbelltown are unlikely to ever feature in the WoS because of the issue of midweek travel, and Forfar would really be stretching things in an EoS context given Borders clubs were not a factor in an east superleague context.
Probably doable with the lower tiers regionalised in an east region sort of way as many of the clubs from the geographical extremes are less likely to feature at tiers 6 and 7 and floodlights can now be used more sensibly but the concerns people express are understandable.

You just told me on the last page that the players of Elgin are mostly from the Central Belt so why can they manage to travel to play every second week without issue but Cowdenbeath and Albion Rovers players will somehow struggle? How many league games are midweek in the average season? Pretty sure it’s not many. How many of these midweek games are against Elgin and Peterhead? I guess they’ll have a couple of weather cancellations but unless they’re going on cup runs plenty of free Saturdays.

[FairWeatherFan]

2 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

It was the clubs I was talking about who have to deal with the logistics involved not the fans. Midweek games in Elgin or Peterhead are already highly problematic for part-time players from the central belt that need to work the next day. Brora could push it beyond breaking point.

Elgin and basically every other League Two side only play midweek league games in the 2nd half of the season amounting to 2-3 a year max. With some extra midweek fixtures falling during the Xmas period.

You're probably only going to see one club maybe two make a trip to Brora during the league season, as those midweek games won't all be in Brora. As for the League Cup and Challenge Cup, well those are problems that Brora and others already face as a Highland League side.

 

[LongTimeLurker]

4 minutes ago, San Starko Rover said:

You just told me on the last page that the players of Elgin are mostly from the Central Belt so why can they manage to travel to play every second week without issue....

 

...because large subsidies from the SPFL make it possible for Elgin to make it worth their time to do so. 

[GordonS]

1 hour ago, San Starko Rover said:

 

Honestly if players and clubs can’t travel from West Lothian to Berwick they’re really not cut out for Senior football. Scotland is not a big country

 

Not sure what you mean by "cut out". Colin Leiper was one of Linlithgow Rose's best players, he's a Scottish Junior international and Rose's defence fell apart when he left.

Reality is, for the rewards that are on offer at this level of football a some guys would prefer less time demands and that's not a reflection of their ability or commitment. It's not much more than a hobby, however much we love it.

[San Starko Rover]

...because large subsidies from the SPFL make it possible for Elgin to make it worth their time to do so. 

So it’s 100% doable for clubs to go to these teams 2 times a season 99% of the time will be on Saturdays, you’d have to be really unlucky to play any of Elgin, Peterhead or even Stranraer midweek more than once or twice in any season. Traveling obviously cost but the main issue with long away games is the time for a part time player due to work commitments but the point is this is not a common problem as most league games are at weekends be it Brora or Stranraer. The issue of “Tuesday nights in Elgin” is something that rarely actually happens despite the scare stories peddled.

Anyway we’re off topic for EOSFL new members.

[LongTimeLurker]

Just now, San Starko Rover said:

So it’s 100% doable for clubs....

...the question should be whether it's sensible and whether so much subsidy money should keep getting pumped in by the SPFL and SFA to inflate a part-time level of football up beyond what it would naturally be able to sustain if left to its own devices. 

[parsforlife]

2 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

...because large subsidies from the SPFL make it possible for Elgin to make it worth their time to do so. 

Where's these subsidies?   I must have missed them.

The idea that brora joining the spfl will suddenly break 100+ years of national part-time football is insane.  As for a logistical nightmare, its really not,  players are well payed for what they do at that level,   The commitment to playing national football and making sure your available to play is entirely expected.  If that's using leave, making shift swaps,  turning down promotions etc then that's what happens.   You occasionally hear of players unavailable due to work, that's very much the exception and nearly only happens when a game has had multiple postponements and played at short notice.  

Seems forgotten also that there are many players who travel 90 minutes+ just for training sessions.   Yes there are players who find themselves unable/ unwilling to make those commitments,  and that's their choice, they can drop down to a level that suits them.

On clubs,  We have a handful of clubs that blur the lines between amateurs and professional, for who the step between local amateur leagues to EoS wide isn't a comfortable one to make.  But even outside of the highlands(where the level of commitment is huge in comparison to the cushy life central belt has) amateur leagues expect hour long journeys.  I don't think its too much for those clubs who feel they are a little above that to travel 1 to 2  hours.  

 

Edited March 18, 2021 by parsforlife

[tamthebam]

2 hours ago, San Starko Rover said:

 

Honestly if players and clubs can’t travel from West Lothian to Berwick they’re really not cut out for Senior football. Scotland is not a big country

 

There was a moan amongst Dunbar fans when they were in the East Juniors that they were often expected to travel to West Lothian and Sauchie in midweek at the end of seasons (often with a couple of days notice as there was no advance fixture list) whereas the likes of Armadale were never expected to do the reverse. There was a feeling that Dunbar was the end of the world even after improvement work on the A1 meant that Dunbar was now half an hour from Edinburgh on a dualled road.

Edited March 18, 2021 by tamthebam
Spellung

[Cyclizine]

1 hour ago, LongTimeLurker said:

...the question should be whether it's sensible and whether so much subsidy money should keep getting pumped in by the SPFL and SFA to inflate a part-time level of football up beyond what it would naturally be able to sustain if left to its own devices. 

Not the subsidy argument again. Just because a league or association has decent sponsorship doesn't mean it is subsidising its clubs by awarding prizemoney and other payments. This is exactly what they should be doing. Where else do you want the money to go? Keep even more at the top?

[Malty Guy]

10 minutes ago, tamthebam said:

There was a moan amongst Dunbar fans when they were in the East Juniors that they were often expected to travel to West Lothian and Sauchie in midweek at the end of seasons (often with a couple of days notice as there was no advance fixture list) whereas the likes of Armadale were never expected to do the reverse. There was a feeling that Dunbar was the end of the world even after improvement work on the A1 meant that Dunbar was now half an hour from Edinburgh on a dualled road.

And the your point is, Armadale fans don’t like the A1