The Hibernian Thread

[Crawford Bridge]

f**k me. Another long winded jambo bore to add to the collective.

[Tommy Tappin]

39 minutes ago, The Nature Boy said:

You're coming across as a real Gordon/Kensell fanboy here.

In what way has Kensell "made us literal millions"? How can you say that when you have just posted a loss of £4m?

Maybe what you mean is he has substantially increased turnover. How much of that would you actually attribute to Ben Kensell and not the investments made by the Gordons.

When other Hibs fans question Kensell's salary you then for some reason compare his £325k salary to the Celtic CEO and ignore more realistic comparisons like Andrew McKinlay at Hearts (annual salary roughly £200k) or Alan Burrows at Aberdeen who I would guess would be on sub £150k. I think it is entirely fair to question his salary based on what your competitors are paying (just to confirm that is not Celtic) that is even without factoring in how things are going on the park.

You also seem to be swallowing the positive news regarding "recording breaking year" coming from the club without any real scrutiny. What is record breaking, the turnover or the profit? Given we are only over half way through the season how sure are they that this will happen and what are they basing it on, is this based on the expectation that they can still finish third and win the Scottish Cup? I'd be willing to bet that turnover will be up purely based on the European games and reaching the semi final of the league cup. How much can you rely on these things happening year on year and the turnover staying at those levels or will this be a one off good year.

On the debt due to the Gordons (or previously due to the Gordons) it cannot be argued that debts have been run up by the owner effectively subsidising the club. Not an issue for me but we were told when it was Romanov that is was unsustainable and no way to run a football club (which is correct). The accounts being released at the same time as the investment coming in from Foley is suspicious in the least. It raises the question of did the Gordons want this investment or need it. Have they decided that the debt for equity is the last of the money they will be putting in to the club and needed someone else to fund it for however long. This would indicate that there is a cash concern (I won't say issue as I don't think the Gordons would have refused to stump up if there was) within the club. I know that cash and profit are a different thing and don't necessarily go hand in hand but this doesn't exactly backup the "record breaking year" comments coming from the club.

I'm not in anyway saying Hibs are in financial difficulty but I do find your unwavering defence of Ben Kensell and the Gordons strange especially with all the evidence, on and off the park, that things aren't exactly going well!

Yeah, I'm aware how it's coming across. It's mostly a reaction to our fans criticising stuff they don't understand. 

Yours however is a reasoned post, and so to address your points in order:

1. How can I say Kensell has made us millions when we made a loss? Kensell's top responsibility is commercial. That's what Ron brought him in to do. 28 new commercial deals later, he's the most successful CEO we've ever had. The losses were mostly loss of income from early competitive exits and one off charges. Someone who can bring in that much money and cost us £300k should not GTF, in my opinion. 

2. It's McDermott and Montgomery's job to make things happen on the park. 'Yeah but who appointed them?' Great, than sack every chairman and ceo who appoint unsuccessful managers. There won't be many left and that's why there's more to it than that. Petrie had a much worse record. 

3. Salary, it's low for CEO average in Scotland. Aberdeen and Hearts are lower still, but both those clubs need cash gifts every year to operate so not comparable. 

4. How can the club say record breaking year. It says on course for record breaking year. The club already knows most of its its Euro, ST, commercial and player trading income for this financial year. League placing and SC run are already budgeted. 

5. How much can we rely on this income year after year? As much as Hearts and Aberdeen can rely on their Brooks Milesons 

6. Gordons subsidy. Not sure Foley would invest if the economic outlook was bleak. Comparison with Romanov difficult as he had run up your debt to £52m at its peak was it? before the first debt for equity issue wiped £12m off your debt. We're barely talking about 10% of that. 

7. It's not really an unwavering defence as the problems at Hibs are laid bare for all to see right now. It's more a reaction to halfwit punters who know **** all, and I mean **** ALL! about running a business or how a business is financed and then repeat the same tropes and insults over and over again. The level of criticism is way over the top (not on p&b but on social in general) and encouraging a hounding out culture is not my bag. I'd rather try to put some facts and context in an attempt to inform. I know I'm massively wasting my time with that. 

Ron Gordon hated the 'persevere' motto because to him it translated as 'never improve, keep losing'.

This Hibs board, competent or incompetent have the ambition that we've been screaming out for and now it's here, surprise surprise, we don't like it. 

The culture of our club is, in part, informed by the fan base and its a toxic loser culture and it holds us back.

That's why I'll come across as a fanboy when all I'm actually doing is is avoiding the knee jerk conclusions and trying to see the full picture. Anything other than crucifying the board comes across as fanboy-ish. That's the lack of nuance in social media debate. 

 

[Crùbag]

31 minutes ago, Tommy Tappin said:

Yeah, I'm aware how it's coming across. It's mostly a reaction to our fans criticising stuff they don't understand. 

Yours however is a reasoned post, and so to address your points in order:

1. How can I say Kensell has made us millions when we made a loss? Kensell's top responsibility is commercial. That's what Ron brought him in to do. 28 new commercial deals later, he's the most successful CEO we've ever had. The losses were mostly loss of income from early competitive exits and one off charges. Someone who can bring in that much money and cost us £300k should not GTF, in my opinion. 

2. It's McDermott and Montgomery's job to make things happen on the park. 'Yeah but who appointed them?' Great, than sack every chairman and ceo who appoint unsuccessful managers. There won't be many left and that's why there's more to it than that. Petrie had a much worse record. 

3. Salary, it's low for CEO average in Scotland. Aberdeen and Hearts are lower still, but both those clubs need cash gifts every year to operate so not comparable. 

4. How can the club say record breaking year. It says on course for record breaking year. The club already knows most of its its Euro, ST, commercial and player trading income for this financial year. League placing and SC run are already budgeted. 

5. How much can we rely on this income year after year? As much as Hearts and Aberdeen can rely on their Brooks Milesons 

6. Gordons subsidy. Not sure Foley would invest if the economic outlook was bleak. Comparison with Romanov difficult as he had run up your debt to £52m at its peak was it? before the first debt for equity issue wiped £12m off your debt. We're barely talking about 10% of that. 

7. It's not really an unwavering defence as the problems at Hibs are laid bare for all to see right now. It's more a reaction to halfwit punters who know **** all, and I mean **** ALL! about running a business or how a business is financed and then repeat the same tropes and insults over and over again. The level of criticism is way over the top (not on p&b but on social in general) and encouraging a hounding out culture is not my bag. I'd rather try to put some facts and context in an attempt to inform. I know I'm massively wasting my time with that. 

Ron Gordon hated the 'persevere' motto because to him it translated as 'never improve, keep losing'.

This Hibs board, competent or incompetent have the ambition that we've been screaming out for and now it's here, surprise surprise, we don't like it. 

The culture of our club is, in part, informed by the fan base and its a toxic loser culture and it holds us back.

That's why I'll come across as a fanboy when all I'm actually doing is is avoiding the knee jerk conclusions and trying to see the full picture. Anything other than crucifying the board comes across as fanboy-ish. That's the lack of nuance in social media debate. 

 

Constructive reply. Certainly, if I were a Hibee I wouldn't be happy, both with on the field product and performance financially.

As to CEO remuneration, Hibs are well disproportiante as this guy points out:

Still don't know why Hibs don't go fan-run. Sure, we have one or two rich benefactors but Hibs have plenty of rich celebs who would help you out too. Stuff the billionaire spivs and their wee toys.

[Tony Wonder]

29 minutes ago, Tommy Tappin said:

Yeah, I'm aware how it's coming across. It's mostly a reaction to our fans criticising stuff they don't understand. 

3. Salary, it's low for CEO average in Scotland. Aberdeen and Hearts are lower still, but both those clubs need cash gifts every year to operate so not comparable. 

I'm not overly bothered about Hibs financials, but it's ironic you're getting annoyed at people criticising stuff they don't understand and then claim Hearts need cash gifts to operate when it's blatantly not the case to anyone who understands how James Anderson's money is being utilised. It is not necessary for us to operate, our turnover last season was over £20m before any benefactor or FOH money. It helped us post a profit, but it's all earmarked and budgeted for and predominantly spent on infrastructure. If JA's money wasn't there, we'd not be building hotels or main stands, but we'd also not be struggling to operate.

[Leith Green]

Hearts fans giving  lessons in financial prudence

[Tommy Tappin]

 

1 hour ago, Crùbag said:

Constructive reply. Certainly, if I were a Hibee I wouldn't be happy, both with on the field product and performance financially.

As to CEO remuneration, Hibs are well disproportiante as this guy points out:

Still don't know why Hibs don't go fan-run. Sure, we have one or two rich benefactors but Hibs have plenty of rich celebs who would help you out too. Stuff the billionaire spivs and their wee toys.

We had the chance. 

1 hour ago, Tony Wonder said:

I'm not overly bothered about Hibs financials, but it's ironic you're getting annoyed at people criticising stuff they don't understand and then claim Hearts need cash gifts to operate when it's blatantly not the case to anyone who understands how James Anderson's money is being utilised. It is not necessary for us to operate, our turnover last season was over £20m before any benefactor or FOH money. It helped us post a profit, but it's all earmarked and budgeted for and predominantly spent on infrastructure. If JA's money wasn't there, we'd not be building hotels or main stands, but we'd also not be struggling to operate.

And similarly, You can't rely on that level of turnover every year just like I was asked so you rely on Anderson for cashflow guarantee first and THEN capital projects in profit making years. Hibs wouldn't be spending on our capital projects without Gordons money either . Can't have it both ways.

Edited February 7 by Tommy Tappin

[The Nature Boy]

2 hours ago, Tommy Tappin said:

Yeah, I'm aware how it's coming across. It's mostly a reaction to our fans criticising stuff they don't understand. 

Yours however is a reasoned post, and so to address your points in order:

1. How can I say Kensell has made us millions when we made a loss? Kensell's top responsibility is commercial. That's what Ron brought him in to do. 28 new commercial deals later, he's the most successful CEO we've ever had. The losses were mostly loss of income from early competitive exits and one off charges. Someone who can bring in that much money and cost us £300k should not GTF, in my opinion. 

2. It's McDermott and Montgomery's job to make things happen on the park. 'Yeah but who appointed them?' Great, than sack every chairman and ceo who appoint unsuccessful managers. There won't be many left and that's why there's more to it than that. Petrie had a much worse record. 

3. Salary, it's low for CEO average in Scotland. Aberdeen and Hearts are lower still, but both those clubs need cash gifts every year to operate so not comparable. 

4. How can the club say record breaking year. It says on course for record breaking year. The club already knows most of its its Euro, ST, commercial and player trading income for this financial year. League placing and SC run are already budgeted. 

5. How much can we rely on this income year after year? As much as Hearts and Aberdeen can rely on their Brooks Milesons 

6. Gordons subsidy. Not sure Foley would invest if the economic outlook was bleak. Comparison with Romanov difficult as he had run up your debt to £52m at its peak was it? before the first debt for equity issue wiped £12m off your debt. We're barely talking about 10% of that. 

7. It's not really an unwavering defence as the problems at Hibs are laid bare for all to see right now. It's more a reaction to halfwit punters who know **** all, and I mean **** ALL! about running a business or how a business is financed and then repeat the same tropes and insults over and over again. The level of criticism is way over the top (not on p&b but on social in general) and encouraging a hounding out culture is not my bag. I'd rather try to put some facts and context in an attempt to inform. I know I'm massively wasting my time with that. 

Ron Gordon hated the 'persevere' motto because to him it translated as 'never improve, keep losing'.

This Hibs board, competent or incompetent have the ambition that we've been screaming out for and now it's here, surprise surprise, we don't like it. 

The culture of our club is, in part, informed by the fan base and its a toxic loser culture and it holds us back.

That's why I'll come across as a fanboy when all I'm actually doing is is avoiding the knee jerk conclusions and trying to see the full picture. Anything other than crucifying the board comes across as fanboy-ish. That's the lack of nuance in social media debate. 

 

Fair enough mate.

I understand its the negative fans that are usually the loud minority on social media especially when things aren't going well on the pitch but I do think sometimes you go above and beyond in your defence of the club. Particularly the two issues highlighted by other posters above re Kensell's salary compared to his peers and noting Hearts and Aberdeen's cash gifts but not classifying the debt to equity at Hibs as the same thing.

Appreciate I'm looking at this from the outside so you'll have a better understanding of the goings on at Hibs but, if it were Hearts, there would be some concerns there for me.

 

[Tony Wonder]

1 minute ago, Tommy Tappin said:

 

We had the chance. 

And similarly, You can't rely on that level of turnover every year just like I was asked so you rely on Anderson for cashflow guarantee first and THEN capital projects in profit making years. Hibs wouldn't be spending on our capital projects without Gordons money either . Can't have it both ways.

We don't rely on Anderson though. Even our first year up under Neilson turnover was over £14m. Our football spend is based on turnover, and if Anderson was to withdraw funding we'd simply cut our cloth, not struggle to operate.

And what do you mean have it both ways? I'm no making claims about Hibs, you're making them about Hearts.

I'd suggest not deflecting about Kensell's wage and trying to claim it's linked to other clubs operability when it's a false equivalence.

[Tommy Tappin]

2 minutes ago, The Nature Boy said:

Fair enough mate.

I understand its the negative fans that are usually the loud minority on social media especially when things aren't going well on the pitch but I do think sometimes you go above and beyond in your defence of the club. Particularly the two issues highlighted by other posters above re Kensell's salary compared to his peers and noting Hearts and Aberdeen's cash gifts but not classifying the debt to equity at Hibs as the same thing.

Appreciate I'm looking at this from the outside so you'll have a better understanding of the goings on at Hibs but, if it were Hearts, there would be some concerns there for me.

 

And there are concerns there for us too. None of know how this Foley thing will turn out. Could be bankruptcy, could be silverware. I prefer to be, as I've used many times on this thread now, 'Cautiously optimistic'. I appreciate the spirit of the conversation. 

2 minutes ago, Tony Wonder said:

We don't rely on Anderson though. Even our first year up under Neilson turnover was over £14m. Our football spend is based on turnover, and if Anderson was to withdraw funding we'd simply cut our cloth, not struggle to operate.

And what do you mean have it both ways? I'm no making claims about Hibs, you're making them about Hearts.

I'd suggest not deflecting about Kensell's wage and trying to claim it's linked to other clubs operability when it's a false equivalence.

As you can see above, reasoned debate is possible. so here are two responses to your post to choose from.

1. If the Gordons withdrew their money, we'd also cut our cloth. You've bought players and set wages knowing that you have Anderson money. Without Anderson money you may not undertake capital expenditure but you'd be far more squeaky arsed on player contracts too in case turnover fell. It's a safety net for you. It's absence  would change your board's decision making across the club. Any executive that can bring money into a club to the extent Kensell has, can command a hefty salary. 

or

2. I'd suggest this is a Hibs thread so **** off. 

Choose whichever response your cognitive bias prefers. 

 

[AndyM]

1 hour ago, Crùbag said:

Still don't know why Hibs don't go fan-run. Sure, we have one or two rich benefactors but Hibs have plenty of rich celebs who would help you out too. Stuff the billionaire spivs and their wee toys.

Whoa! Go fan run like Hearts? Fans don't run Hearts. Ann Budge and the Board do.  Your Board has one person from the FoH on it who will be easily outvoted by the Grown Ups on the Board.  Your board isn't hugely different from Hibs as both are in the main the usual mix of senior partners are Edinburgh Law Firms and Investment Companies. And you have one rich benefactor, James Anderson,  who I used to work with and he's been preventing you from racking up year on year losses for the last 5 years at cost of about £4m a year. 

[pansjambo]

55 minutes ago, Leith Green said:

Hearts fans giving  lessons in financial prudence

HBoS ?

[Tony Wonder]

9 minutes ago, Tommy Tappin said:

And there are concerns there for us too. None of know how this Foley thing will turn out. Could be bankruptcy, could be silverware. I prefer to be, as I've used many times on this thread now, 'Cautiously optimistic'. I appreciate the spirit of the conversation. 

As you can see above, reasoned debate is possible. so here are two responses to your post to choose from.

1. If the Gordons withdrew their money, we'd also cut our cloth. You've bought players and set wages knowing that you have Anderson money. Without Anderson money you may not undertake capital expenditure but you'd be far more squeaky arsed on player contracts too in case turnover fell. It's a safety net for you. It's absence  would change your board's decision making across the club. Any executive that can bring money into a club to the extent Kensell has, can command a hefty salary. 

or

2. I'd suggest this is a Hibs thread so **** off. 

Choose whichever response your cognitive bias prefers. 

 

Hahaha. Running about talking about reasoned responses and chucking insults about because someone pulls you up on your incredibly selective logic. Touchy.

You said Kensell earnt more because Hearts and Aberdeen weren't comparable due to needing cash gifts which isn't true. Also McKinley has brought far more into Hearts than Kensell, your turnover this year was very small. Him taking a wage that size is a direct comparison, like it or not.

[Tommy Tappin]

Just now, Tony Wonder said:

Hahaha. Running about talking about reasoned responses and chucking insults about because someone pulls you up on your incredibly selective logic. Touchy.

You said Kensell earnt more because Hearts and Aberdeen weren't comparable due to needing cash gifts which isn't true. Also McKinley has brought far more into Hearts than Kensell, your turnover this year was very small. Him taking a wage that size is a direct comparison, like it or not.

I gave you a choice. 

Prove that McKinley (directly) has brought more into Hearts than Kensell into Hibs please.  Ta. 

[Tony Wonder]

25 minutes ago, Tommy Tappin said:

I gave you a choice. 

Prove that McKinley (directly) has brought more into Hearts than Kensell into Hibs please.  Ta. 

Gave me a choice

[Crùbag]

42 minutes ago, AndyM said:

Whoa! Go fan run like Hearts? Fans don't run Hearts. Ann Budge and the Board do.  Your Board has one person from the FoH on it who will be easily outvoted by the Grown Ups on the Board.  Your board isn't hugely different from Hibs as both are in the main the usual mix of senior partners are Edinburgh Law Firms and Investment Companies. And you have one rich benefactor, James Anderson,  who I used to work with and he's been preventing you from racking up year on year losses for the last 5 years at cost of about £4m a year. 

We're a fan-owned club. Maybe you're thinking about fan-run clubs?

Hibs are neither. Am no Hibee and don't deny a tad of schadenfreude but I'd rather most clubs were fan-owned rather than being the toys of rich tosspots.

[Tommy Tappin]

I've had a wee bit more of a wade through the fine print of what's being proposed at the AGM and it all boils down to a bit of a watershed moment for us Hibees.

We either want to be a 'break the bank/push the boat out/show some ambition/loosen the purse strings club or we want to be a community club with a core socialist value system. Can't be both. 

We had the chance to cement our identity as a community club under Farmer and didn't take it.  If these resolutions pass at the AGM, which I suspect they will, we're a screaming Tory capitalist club.

May the strongest will, win. 

[Crùbag]

1 hour ago, Tommy Tappin said:

I've had a wee bit more of a wade through the fine print of what's being proposed at the AGM and it all boils down to a bit of a watershed moment for us Hibees.

We either want to be a 'break the bank/push the boat out/show some ambition/loosen the purse strings club or we want to be a community club with a core socialist value system. Can't be both. 

We had the chance to cement our identity as a community club under Farmer and didn't take it.  If these resolutions pass at the AGM, which I suspect they will, we're a screaming Tory capitalist club.

May the strongest will, win. 

This from one guy on Hibs Net.

Quote

"5. Decision-making - the club is very poorly run - existing staff appeared to be dispensed with early and money wasted on a lot of vanity projects. Why pay so much to agencies to run catering and the shop when you could be a key community employer. The money we have wasted in a football sense is also shocking.

It’s sad that as a club we spent so long doing things the right way while Hearts didn’t yet they end up the community club and we are now at the whim of the investment market."

That's nice!

And Jim Adie of HSL. Seems like Foley's "investment" of £6m will go straight to the Gordons.

Quote

“We have moved from a situation of no debt to a situation of £5.7 million in debt, that’s just to the Gordon family alone.”

https://www.footballscotland.co.uk/spfl/scottish-premiership/bill-foley-hibs-involvement-heartbreaking-28596010

 

What a mess. There should be demos outside ER but from what I've read on here, many Hibees are fairly satisfied with being a pawn for international investors/ private pirates.

[Austin McCann]

5 hours ago, Tommy Tappin said:

I've had a wee bit more of a wade through the fine print of what's being proposed at the AGM and it all boils down to a bit of a watershed moment for us Hibees.

We either want to be a 'break the bank/push the boat out/show some ambition/loosen the purse strings club or we want to be a community club with a core socialist value system. Can't be both. 

We had the chance to cement our identity as a community club under Farmer and didn't take it.  If these resolutions pass at the AGM, which I suspect they will, we're a screaming Tory capitalist club.

May the strongest will, win. 

Edited February 9 by Austin McCann

[GHF-23]

It's unironically all Simon Pia's fault the dick 

[Ro Sham Bo]

https://www.hibernianfc.co.uk/article/hibs-to-face-raith-rovers-for-lewis-vaughans-testimonial