Junior football, what is the future?

[Che Dail]

20 minutes ago, RobM said:

See this is the problem, licencing and ground improvements creates a glass ceiling for clubs that doesn't exist in the Juniors.  Why would clubs push themselves into a set-up which demands substantial financial input when the current set-up doesn't?

Clubs aren't going to lay their future on the line to meet criteria they have no real desire to meet.

You don't need a licence to join the EoS set up, but all clubs have the potential to work towards it, and the incentives to do so are plain for everybody to see.  

For a club like Easthouses, what the previous poster is saying is that they now pretty much meet the licencing criteria other than the need for a small extension  to their covered enclosure provision, and they'd also need to screen the perimeter fence which by comparison to the other requirements is not a significant outlay. 

What they and other Midlothian clubs are potentially about to face is a gaping hole in their budgets if the Local Authority cuts its Grant awards and support to even the most basic services such as grass cutting, which is a very real possibility due to a massive well publicised shortfall in their own resources. 

That gap is not going to be filled by gate receipts, other than in brilliant moments such as agreeing to take a Friday night cup game under the lights if a local derby presents itself again.  Still, with half the gate going to Bonnyrigg that night it's probably not life-changing amounts of money we're talking about.

As a simple exercise take a look at the current Super League and remove your 3 or 4 favourite clubs and figure out how it looks with your club alongside the ones that are left.  There is a risk facing  every club that the SL and Premier will not look anything like the way it does now next season or in the next 3-5 years.

Scottish Cup entry to Junior clubs is a massive carrot that might not be dangling for much longer if more clubs like Kelty make the transition to the pyramid, as is expected.  

 

Edited November 2, 2017 by Che Dail

[RobM]

2 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

Only the Lowland League requires a Licence, and as I have already pointed out, there are some pretty small clubs already Licenced outwith that, Coldstream, Burntisland, Newton Stewart, Civil Service Strollers, Threave Rovers and St.Cuthberts, even Golspie Sutherland up north. If they are able to  do it, any Junior club competitive enough to be promoted into the LL can do it (down the road from you, Preston Athletic are Licenced, so are Whitehill, I'm sure Musselburgh could be with little effort).  The Scottish Football Partnership help with grants as do other funding bodies and some Councils. Once you are Licenced and members of the SFA, you start to receive the financial benefits that over time outweigh any initial outlay. However, Licencing is not all about facilities, most Junior clubs tick a lot of the boxes already. It isn't a barrier.

The Junior game does not fit around people, we don't play midweek games under floodlights as many clubs don't have them, meaning 3 games a week from mid-April, sometimes 4 if you're really behind, to catch-up. That's not very player or fan or committee friendly, it's a disaster.

Was that your answer to both questions?

How stretched would those budgets become if you throw in an influx of clubs seeking licencing though and how would the existing financial pot stretch over this?  

Preston play in a Council facility, good luck getting councils to develop similar elsewhere with their current funding crises.  If clubs feel able to meet licencing criteria then I applaud that but then others won't feel they could do it without risk.   The benefit of playing Junior football is they don't have to take that risk.

More clubs means lower rewards once the division of this takes place.  there isn't going to be any huge increase in funds made available by the SFA so it'll simply be spread thinner. 

Midweek games in the juniors tend, as far as is possible, to be local affairs.  Many clubs don't have floodlights as it would again commit them to a huge layout, that isn't going to happen for many.

[Che Dail]

1 hour ago, RobM said:

But that pot would be reduced the more clubs that entered the pyramid though wouldn't it?

Would it be enough to raise grounds to the required standards for clubs who would perhaps have to mortgage themselves to meet these?

Yes, but looking at the numbers, there would need to be a massive influx of clubs for it to make much of a difference.  There are currently 88 licensed clubs, each receiving a share of the SFA profit as members.  Assume it is £10k a year each just now.  So if another 88 clubs obtained a licence, that would reduce the payment to £5k each.  Let's say for arguments sake that 12 more clubs obtain a licence next year  - still £8,800 at Christmas.  Go and ask Charlie what he thinks about that!

On the point about clubs having to take out a mortgage themselves - well why not?  Figures being banded about that £100k is needed to get some clubs up to standard. Over 20 years, that's about £500 a month.  The SFA Payment covers that, and you have a ground which is fit for purpose.  There's a business plan there to show that the debt is serviceable - especially if you go on a run in the Scottish...

 

 

 

Edited November 3, 2017 by Che Dail

[AlanCamelonfan]

10 hours ago, Burnie_man said:

Yes.

so the rest that aren't licensed don't get the same rewards. proving the point unless your licensed its probably not worth it

[AlanCamelonfan]

9 hours ago, Che Dail said:

Scottish Cup entry to Junior clubs is a massive carrot that might not be dangling for much longer if more clubs like Kelty make the transition to the pyramid, as is expected.  

 

What do you mean as is expected. Only Bo'ness flirted with the idea. The others were just rumoured like Bonnyrigg Rose. People just say Linlithgow Rose because they hav e a license but they don't need to move. There is no evidence that such a thing is going to happen

[8MileBU]

What do you mean as is expected. Only Bo'ness flirted with the idea. The others were just rumoured like Bonnyrigg Rose. People just say Linlithgow Rose because they hav e a license but they don't need to move. There is no evidence that such a thing is going to happen

It’s quite clear whats meant by ‘as is expected’. This is Kelty’s first and transitional season in the pyramid, and every club in the Juniors will be keeping a close eye on how things progress (or possibly regress albeit unlikely) over in deepest darkest Fife. Don’t kid yourself on that only Bo’ness flirted with the idea though. We were just the other team who ‘went public’ with our stance. Bonnyrigg I feel only had to make an official statement because being the other big team in the East, it was only natural their name was going to be banded around when the subject of leaving the Juniors for the pyramid cropped up. Again though, don’t kid yourself on that Bonnyrigg and umpteen other clubs in the Juniors won’t be keeping a close eye on how things pan out for Kelty this season or so.

[Burnie_man]

so the rest that aren't licensed don't get the same rewards. proving the point unless your licensed its probably not worth it

Sigh. You can't get Licenced if you remain in the Juniors. That's the point.

[honestly united]

11 hours ago, RobM said:

See this is the problem, licencing and ground improvements creates a glass ceiling for clubs that doesn't exist in the Juniors.  Why would clubs push themselves into a set-up which demands substantial financial input when the current set-up doesn't?

Clubs aren't going to lay their future on the line to meet criteria they have no real desire to meet.

But being in the Juniors already is not a glass ceiling? Or more likely a huge concrete ceiling with no way through it and no where to go. At least in a pyramid if clubs want to progress they can do, if they dont they can stay in local leagues.

Your complaint is that if you joined the pyramid, which at EoS or SoS level im sure the majority of clubs in the juniors would already have the required facilities, would require substantial financial input? On what exactly?

Or that you would be moving from a local league, to .... playing in a local league?

If junior clubs so wished they could stay year on year in the EoS, SoS or whatever equivalent if they dont go for licensing, which would be the exact same as the current super leagues.

[Ross.]

11 hours ago, RobM said:

See this is the problem, licencing and ground improvements creates a glass ceiling for clubs that doesn't exist in the Juniors.  Why would clubs push themselves into a set-up which demands substantial financial input when the current set-up doesn't?

Clubs aren't going to lay their future on the line to meet criteria they have no real desire to meet.

What are the ground requirements that would be the absolute minimum to qualify?

[Jason King]

4 minutes ago, honestly united said:

 At least in a pyramid if clubs want to progress they can do, if they dont they can stay in local leagues.

Which seems to be a point most are missing - the majority of Junior teams will hardly see any difference at all if we were part of an all encompassing pyramid.

[Che Dail]

12 minutes ago, Ross. said:

What are the ground requirements that would be the absolute minimum to qualify?

You can download the Club Licensing Manual here:

http://www.scottishfa.co.uk/football_document_libraries.cfm?page=2570

And scroll to Section 2, page 24 Ground Criteria (Entry Level).  The requirements are mostly basic facilities and features you'd want a club to have anyway. 

 

[Guest]

20 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

You can download the Club Licensing Manual here:

http://www.scottishfa.co.uk/football_document_libraries.cfm?page=2570

And scroll to Section 2, page 24 Ground Criteria (Entry Level).  The requirements are mostly basic facilities and features you'd want a club to have anyway. 

 

Always good to remind, it's not a ground licence, there are various hoops to jump through to gain a club licence other than the ground itself. 

[Che Dail]

Just now, Isabel Goudie said:

Always good to remind, it's not a ground licence, there are various hoops to jump through to gain a club licence other than the ground itself. 

Yes of course, its a lot of work to focus on and get through - but again  it's all things you'd want a club to have. 

[archieb]

2 hours ago, honestly united said:

At least in a pyramid if clubs want to progress they can do, if they dont they can stay in local leagues.

Or that you would be moving from a local league, to .... playing in a local league?

If junior clubs so wished they could stay year on year in the EoS, SoS or whatever equivalent if they dont go for licensing, which would be the exact same as the current super leagues.

 

1 hour ago, Jason King said:

Which seems to be a point most are missing - the majority of Junior teams will hardly see any difference at all if we were part of an all encompassing pyramid.

Nothing local about the SoSL for nearly all West Junior clubs!

[Guest]

3 hours ago, honestly united said:

But being in the Juniors already is not a glass ceiling? Or more likely a huge concrete ceiling with no way through it and no where to go. At least in a pyramid if clubs want to progress they can do, if they dont they can stay in local leagues.

Your complaint is that if you joined the pyramid, which at EoS or SoS level im sure the majority of clubs in the juniors would already have the required facilities, would require substantial financial input? On what exactly?

Or that you would be moving from a local league, to .... playing in a local league?

If junior clubs so wished they could stay year on year in the EoS, SoS or whatever equivalent if they dont go for licensing, which would be the exact same as the current super leagues.

This is the kind of endorsement from a supporter of a senior club that the SFA love, because it lets them get away with neglecting football at non league level, they need to actually organise it so as to have a semblance of sense. The current pyramid only pays lip service to progression. The East of Scotland league is of such a standard that a Junior team can join it, and no one can claim Kelty were a Junior heavyweight, and are winning every game with embarrassing ease and yet this grade officially stands above the top junior grades. As for the SOS set up also officially higher than top Junior,  widely considered a lower level than the EOS and geographically isolated, making it obsolete due to Junior clubs in the West having too much to lose to even consider joining it. Why would they? To gain entry into the LL should they win? This is a league who accepted a team created to give foreign students a game, SOS league being so poor they entered it won it and gained promotion to the LL. So a sports club for foreigners is now in a set up with a collection of upgraded boys clubs and a few well run community clubs. Why on earth would any big Junior club from the west join a league of a lower standard than the Ayrshire  district to gain entry into a LL set up which is so ad hoc  that it could have been named the Heath Robinson Lowland League?

[HTG]

Just noticed that Hills will no longer carry odds on junior matches. That's an indicator of how highly thought of this grade is.

On Bet365 right now, I can get an in play bet on the Bahrain Kings Cup or on the Ecuador Reserve League where there is a 5pm kick off.  

Yet British bookmakers won't so much as look at the market for clubs at "tiers 6 or 7" in Scotland. 

There is clearly a market and lack of knowledge is no excuse. In fact a couple of years back they refused to price up some of the non league meetings in the William Hill Scottish Cup 1st round proper. 

Whatever the future holds, it isn't promising. 

[HibeeJibee]

Kelty won the East Juniors 2 out of the last 3 seasons. Runners-up in between. Most people would consider that "heavyweight".

Is IG suggesting Edusport, despite meeting applicable criteria, should have been refused admission to SOSL or promotion to LL because a high proportion of their players are foreign?

These "upgraded boys clubs" didn't do too badly recording scores like Edinburgh City 2-1 Auchinleck, BSC Glasgow 2-2 Auchinleck and Cumbernauld 2-0 Auchinleck in recent Scottish Cups.

There are patently more than a "few" well-run community clubs in senior non-league football.

Proving about as accurate as IG's prediction Edinburgh City's crowds would bomb in SPFL2 and struggle to reach 3 figures. For the record they averaged 401 last season, currently on 321.

[Wile E Coyote]

8 minutes ago, HibeeJibee said:

These "upgraded boys clubs" didn't do too badly recording scores like Edinburgh City 2-1 Auchinleck, BSC Glasgow 2-2 Auchinleck and Cumbernauld 2-0 Auchinleck in recent Scottish Cups.

 

Isabel never mentioned Talbot once in his post so I fail to see the relevance in this part. I have seen you quote that BSC result a few times, I have never seen you mention the replay result, does that not suit your agenda.

And Isabel is right, Kelty are not seen as Junior heavyweights. Yes they are capable of putting good teams together as most junior teams are but they are artificially better at the moment due to external funding.

As we are cherry picking results to suit agendas Talbot played Kelty in the Junior cup a few seasons ago and absolutely brushed them aside with ease

[calmac25]

How stretched would those budgets become if you throw in an influx of clubs seeking licencing though and how would the existing financial pot stretch over this?  

Preston play in a Council facility, good luck getting councils to develop similar elsewhere with their current funding crises.  If clubs feel able to meet licencing criteria then I applaud that but then others won't feel they could do it without risk.   The benefit of playing Junior football is they don't have to take that risk.

More clubs means lower rewards once the division of this takes place.  there isn't going to be any huge increase in funds made available by the SFA so it'll simply be spread thinner. 

Midweek games in the juniors tend, as far as is possible, to be local affairs.  Many clubs don't have floodlights as it would again commit them to a huge layout, that isn't going to happen for many.

Preston play in a council facility but I think musselburgh do too? I think the council paid for the changing rooms and toilet block which are all SFA compliant and I'd be shocked if Musselburgh haven't considered their future away from the juniors.

East Lothian council have ploughed a load of money into building 3G's and changing facilities in all 6 of the main towns for the community clubs. They are also funding over half a million towards the Ormiston pavilion too.

In comparison to a few sets of floodlights in Midlothian I think East Lothian council seem to be keen to promote sport in the county

[Burnie_man]

1 hour ago, Isabel Goudie said:

This is the kind of endorsement from a supporter of a senior club that the SFA love, because it lets them get away with neglecting football at non league level, they need to actually organise it so as to have a semblance of sense. The current pyramid only pays lip service to progression. The East of Scotland league is of such a standard that a Junior team can join it, and no one can claim Kelty were a Junior heavyweight, and are winning every game with embarrassing ease and yet this grade officially stands above the top junior grades. As for the SOS set up also officially higher than top Junior,  widely considered a lower level than the EOS and geographically isolated, making it obsolete due to Junior clubs in the West having too much to lose to even consider joining it. Why would they? To gain entry into the LL should they win? This is a league who accepted a team created to give foreign students a game, SOS league being so poor they entered it won it and gained promotion to the LL. So a sports club for foreigners is now in a set up with a collection of upgraded boys clubs and a few well run community clubs. Why on earth would any big Junior club from the west join a league of a lower standard than the Ayrshire  district to gain entry into a LL set up which is so ad hoc  that it could have been named the Heath Robinson Lowland League?

As has been discussed over the last few pages, people realise there needs to be a West of Scotland League for a Pyramid to work (or a West Lowland League, but that’s sadly unlikely). The South of Scotland is not a viable league for the West and most member clubs do not want to travel to Ayrshire or Glasgow anyway, so they can be left alone to continue as they are.

That leaves the West Junior set-up which – in theory at least – could fill the void en-masse, or at least 12-16 interested clubs could.  I’m fairly certain the SFA would be all ears to such an approach.

Like it or not, the LL is considered a level above the Juniors and with Lothian Thistle having just gubbed Stirling Albion away in the Scottish (and beaten Kelty), there are strong clubs ready to join it. It’s not going away.

Edited November 3, 2017 by Burnie_man