Club Licence

[Marten]

51 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Talbot would already be in the pyramid this season, if the EoS hadn't objected to having two east feeders. The EoS and LL can block changes to the pro/rel arrangements for the LL but club licensing is only up to the SFA Board, who were pushing the plan that would have enabled WRSJFA entry. Given that backdrop there is no obvious reason why the SFA Board are likely to see WRSJFA clubs as the bad guy in all of this because most SFA members probably don't give a flying one how many east feeders there are below the LL and will have a hard time seeing why it is supposed to matter. We'll see what happens but I'll be surprised if Petershill and Cumnock are treated any differently from Dunipace.

That's twisting the reality. As people have already made clear, the objections were not about the west. The SJFA were offered the possibility of the West Superleague at Tier 6. However, they didn't agree to it unless the East Superleague was included too. It obviously was unreasonable to demand that. Had the SJFA agreed to the proposal, the likes of Talbot, Petershill & Cumnock would have been in the pyramid now. And even if both the EOS & LL would have agreed to the SJFA's proposal, it doesn't mean it would have happened. Reason for that is that the HL/LL boundary had to be moved to make that plan reality. Neither the PWG, nor the SFA have any power to do this as that decision is with the PGB, comprising of the Lowland League, Highland League & SPFL. So even if the plan had passed the SJFA, SFA, LL, SOS & EOS for approval, the HL and SPFL could still have crushed it. This is why the east and west entry should have been treated as separate cases. West was (and still is) easy to sort out. For the east there are many factors that make it more complicated.

With that in mind, it's fair enough to not allow teams to get a license at this stage as long as they are not in a league that is a part of the pyramid, as the SJFA clearly has not yet shown willingness for the west leagues to be moved into the pyramid. The only way to finally get this sorted (which I really want to happen) is for clubs waiting for licenses to hold TJ to account and push for it internally within the SJFA, or for clubs to join a senior league (maybe a new one in the west?). 

[Marten]

On 24/06/2019 at 13:21, pipedreamer said:

Look at Talbot, if the Scottish scup entry for junior league and junior cup winners was removed, I’m sure they would have a different attitude to joining the pyramid given their club would be many thousands of pounds worse off given their recent runs in the competition. As long as they can stay junior and get that access they see no reason to push the issue, and for the rest, as long as the well supported clubs are still in their league so they can budget on an away support (silly business plan imo) they won’t bother their shirts either. The sfa can force the issue with licensing and Scottish cup access, it’s the only way they can do so.

 

Lets not forget that TJ tried to block the east superleague winners getting into the Scottish Cup when they decided to leave, the guy doesn’t give two sh!ts about any of the clubs unless they play in the west region in staunch junior country.

Agreed, he also clearly doesn't care about clubs in the north as they were quickly forgotten about in the "all in" approach. He only cares about the east when it suits him. He is pushing for the East Superleague to be part of the pyramid, but how much do the remaining south of Tay ERJFA clubs really want that to happen? They didn't join the EOS when they could join at tier 6 and even now they could still join at tier 7 they still didn't do it while knowing it will more than likely be tier 8 next season. Then they pushed through regionalisation within the ERJFA, knowing that regional leagues would not be accepted. They clearly are not bothered with pyramid entry. And that's absolutely fair enough. I might not understand their stance, they have to decide for themselves what they think is the best so if that's their choice, fair play. But if they are not bothered, then there is no reason to try to force them in and in the process block the access to the pyramid of 63 clubs in the west.

[LongTimeLurker]

14 minutes ago, Marten said:

That's twisting the reality...

What I stated was factual. Talbot would be in the pyramid now if the EoS had not objected to having the ERSJFA at tier 6. It's also factual that the SFA Board and Ian Maxwell wanted SJFA entry to be the outcome of the PWG meetings last season and did not agree with the EoS's objections. How that mess gets resolved is a separate issue from individual clubs getting licensed. The EoS clubs can block SJFA pyramid entry south of the Tay until kingdom come if it doesn't unfold in the manner they would prefer because they hold an effective veto over changes to the promotion playoff into the LL, but they have absolutely no control over club licensing. These two issues are not directly linked. As things stand the juniors should already be in from an SFA Board perspective, so why would the SFA Board block licensing applications from junior clubs at this point?

[AlanCamelonfan]

5 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

What I stated was factual. Talbot would be in the pyramid now if the EoS had not objected to having the ERSJFA at tier 6. It's also factual that the SFA Board and Ian Maxwell wanted SJFA entry to be the outcome of the PWG meetings last season and did not agree with the EoS's objections. How that mess gets resolved is a separate issue from individual clubs getting licensed. The EoS clubs can block SJFA pyramid entry south of the Tay until kingdom come if it doesn't unfold in the manner they would prefer because they hold an effective veto over changes to the promotion playoff into the LL, but they have absolutely no control over club licensing. These two issues are not directly linked. As things stand the juniors should already be in from an SFA Board perspective, so why would the SFA Board block licensing applications from junior clubs at this point?

Your are obviously a troll looking for an argument. I can't believe anyone would say the eos stopiping ersjfa coming in is the reason Talbot can't get a licence. People like you should actually take a long hard look at yourselves.

[AlanCamelonfan]

8 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

What I stated was factual. Talbot would be in the pyramid now if the EoS had not objected to having the ERSJFA at tier 6. It's also factual that the SFA Board and Ian Maxwell wanted SJFA entry to be the outcome of the PWG meetings last season and did not agree with the EoS's objections. How that mess gets resolved is a separate issue from individual clubs getting licensed. The EoS clubs can block SJFA pyramid entry south of the Tay until kingdom come if it doesn't unfold in the manner they would prefer because they hold an effective veto over changes to the promotion playoff into the LL, but they have absolutely no control over club licensing. These two issues are not directly linked. As things stand the juniors should already be in from an SFA Board perspective, so why would the SFA Board block licensing applications from junior clubs at this point?

Sfa will block it as the rules are you have to be in a pyr amid league for 400 th time

[LongTimeLurker]

The SFA Board stopped junior clubs from getting licensed when they were collectively opposed to pyramid entry. That is no longer the case, so there is no obvious reason why the SFA Board will still block licensing applications since from their perspective the WRSJFA and ERSJFA are still expected to be in very soon and are doing a trial run of pyramid related discipline procedures this season  in anticipation of entry in 2020-21. That demonstrates a commitment to the principle of progression.

[Burnie_man]

17 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

The SFA Board stopped junior clubs from getting licensed when they were collectively opposed to pyramid entry. That is no longer the case, so there is no obvious reason why the SFA Board will still block licensing applications since from their perspective the WRSJFA and ERSJFA are still expected to be in very soon and are doing a trial run of pyramid related discipline procedures this season  in anticipation of entry in 2020-21. That demonstrates a commitment to the principle of progression.

The ERJFA wont be in anytime soon. You seem to want to fire bullets in the direction of the EoS for having the audacity to stand up for them being considered the tier 6 league covering the east of Scotland. Why is that?

You say it's no longer the case that the Juniors oppose entry, you're ignoring the NRJFA's position, which is they oppose Pyramid entry.

We've gone over this many times, you now seem to want to come out and start pointing fingers when everyone knows where the blame lies, why? what "skin in the game" do you have here?

[Burnie_man]

33 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

What I stated was factual. Talbot would be in the pyramid now if the EoS had not objected to having the ERSJFA at tier 6. It's also factual that the SFA Board and Ian Maxwell wanted SJFA entry to be the outcome of the PWG meetings last season and did not agree with the EoS's objections. How that mess gets resolved is a separate issue from individual clubs getting licensed. The EoS clubs can block SJFA pyramid entry south of the Tay until kingdom come if it doesn't unfold in the manner they would prefer because they hold an effective veto over changes to the promotion playoff into the LL, but they have absolutely no control over club licensing. These two issues are not directly linked. As things stand the juniors should already be in from an SFA Board perspective, so why would the SFA Board block licensing applications from junior clubs at this point?

Because they dont play in a Pyramid league as it stands.

If PWG is a seperate issue to Licencing as you claim, what if Culter want to be Licenced, or any current NRJFA member?

[FairWeatherFan]

26 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

The SFA Board stopped junior clubs from getting licensed when they were collectively opposed to pyramid entry. That is no longer the case, so there is no obvious reason why the SFA Board will still block licensing applications since from their perspective the WRSJFA and ERSJFA are still expected to be in very soon and are doing a trial run of pyramid related discipline procedures this season  in anticipation of entry in 2020-21. That demonstrates a commitment to the principle of progression.

At what point did the SJFA say they did not collectively want to enter the pyramid? Far as I remember they've always said yes, just on their own terms. How is this any different?

[LongTimeLurker]

12 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

Because they dont play in a Pyramid league as it stands.

If PWG is a seperate issue to Licencing as you claim, what if Culter want to be Licenced, or any current NRJFA member?

Given there is no tier 6 pyramid league north of the Tay it is not clear how the SFA could sensibly reject an applicant on the basis that they are not in a tier 6 pyramid league. It has never been tested, but odds on Tayside and NRSJFA clubs actually always could have got licensed, if they had tried. The SFA insisted that clubs south of the Tay demonstrate a commitment to the principle of progression through EoS or SoS entry when the SJFA was opposed to pyramid entry and Tom Johnston was telling any newspaper journalist that listened about how they were going to continue to do their own things. The SJFA now collectively supports pyramid entry and the SFA actually very much supported WRSJFA and ERSJFA entry at tier 6 for this season, so there is no logical reason to expect that requirement would still be applicable.

 

[FairWeatherFan]

4 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Given there is no tier 6 pyramid league north of the Tay it is not clear how the SFA could sensibly reject an applicant on the basis that they are not in a tier 6 pyramid league. It has never been tested, but odds on Tayside and NRSJFA clubs actually always could have got licensed, if they had tried. The SFA insisted that clubs south of the Tay demonstrate a commitment to the principle of progression through EoS or SoS entry when the SJFA was opposed to pyramid entry and Tom Johnston was telling any newspaper journalist that listened about how they were going to continue to do their own things. The SJFA now collectively supports pyramid entry and the SFA actually very much supported WRSJFA and ERSJFA entry at tier 6 for this season, so there is no logical reason to expect that requirement would still be applicable.

 

They can apply to join the Highland League.

[Burnie_man]

7 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Given there is no tier 6 pyramid league north of the Tay it is not clear how the SFA could sensibly reject an applicant on the basis that they are not in a tier 6 pyramid league. It has never been tested, but odds on Tayside and NRSJFA clubs actually always could have got licensed, if they had tried. The SFA insisted that clubs south of the Tay demonstrate a commitment to the principle of progression through EoS or SoS entry when the SJFA was opposed to pyramid entry and Tom Johnston was telling any newspaper journalist that listened about how they were going to continue to do their own things. The SJFA now collectively supports pyramid entry and the SFA actually very much supported WRSJFA and ERSJFA entry at tier 6 for this season, so there is no logical reason to expect that requirement would still be applicable.

 

The NRJFA have rejected the Pyramid, so how do Culter apply for a Licence as a Junior club?

Tayside clubs indicate their intention to join the HL if they want a Licence.

[LongTimeLurker]

...and on and on because I have dared to venture off message and must now be browbeaten into silence. We'll soon see if there is any negative outcome for BoD for rejecting progression to the HL when it was offered to them. Odds on there won't be.

The SFA CEO didn't even know that they had a boundary at the Tay and saw no problem with all of the ERSJFA feeding into the LL, but some would have us believe that everything on the pyramid is rigidly carved in stone on licensing issues that the SFA Board could easily change on a whim.  Meanwhile Petershill have had a visit from the licensing inspectors and think they are in the process now. Hope it all works out for them and Cumnock and they are the first of many regardless of what happens with the PWG.

[Burnie_man]

...and on and on because I have dared to venture off message and must now be browbeaten into silence. We'll soon see if there is any negative outcome for BoD for rejecting progression to the HL when it was offered to them. Odds on there won't be.

The SFA CEO didn't even know that they had a boundary at the Tay and saw no problem with all of the ERSJFA feeding into the LL, but some would have us believe that everything on the pyramid is rigidly carved in stone on licensing issues that the SFA Board could easily change on a whim.  Meanwhile Petershill have had a visit from the licensing inspectors and think they are in the process now. Hope it all works out for them and Cumnock and they are the first of many regardless of what happens with the PWG.

No brow beating, peoplr are just asking you to substantiate what you're posting and you're doing a good job of body swerving obvious inconsistencies. It's clear you have a vested interest and are a bit upset the west aren't in for next season. That isn't the fault of the EoS.

 

I'm a bit surprised you're coming out with all of this now.

[Shannon]

[emoji849] Ffs. [emoji42][emoji42][emoji42]

[gaz5]

...and on and on because I have dared to venture off message and must now be browbeaten into silence. We'll soon see if there is any negative outcome for BoD for rejecting progression to the HL when it was offered to them. Odds on there won't be.
The SFA CEO didn't even know that they had a boundary at the Tay and saw no problem with all of the ERSJFA feeding into the LL, but some would have us believe that everything on the pyramid is rigidly carved in stone on licensing issues that the SFA Board could easily change on a whim.  Meanwhile Petershill have had a visit from the licensing inspectors and think they are in the process now. Hope it all works out for them and Cumnock and they are the first of many regardless of what happens with the PWG.

They're not officially in the process till the SFA accept the applications and take the £2k fee.

The visit from the licencing dept was pre emptive.

Non of the 3 applicants, juniors or otherwise, are "in the process" yet as far as I'm aware. If Petershill and/or Cumnock are then we are in the odd scenario where the SFA would be progressing clubs outside of the pyramid before those inside it. That would be interesting ground. [emoji846]

On the subject of the EoS "blocking" WRSJFA pyramid access, that is a falsehood in its entirety.

It was made clear by the EoS and LL that they had no issue with the West, that if the SJFA paused the east for a year to allow further time to discuss the issue no one would object to the West joining for season 19/20.

That offer was declined by the SJFA.

The only blocker to Talbot (or any other West team) being in the Pyramid next year was TJ and the SJFA.

Obviously there will be people who will believe otherwise, but I was in the room, along with many others on here, so know the reality.

I know it happened because I was one of 3 delegates on the night who made representation to RP and IM in front of the room that the West Juniors SHOULD enter for next season. On all three occasions this was raised the room was asked for objections to West entry. On all 3 occasions, no objections were raised, there was unanimous support from EoS clubs to allow the West in next year following the JPP.

This hasn't happened despite the EoS lobbying FOR it, not against it.

So, who stopped it?

[Marten]

2 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

What I stated was factual. Talbot would be in the pyramid now if the EoS had not objected to having the ERSJFA at tier 6. It's also factual that the SFA Board and Ian Maxwell wanted SJFA entry to be the outcome of the PWG meetings last season and did not agree with the EoS's objections. How that mess gets resolved is a separate issue from individual clubs getting licensed. The EoS clubs can block SJFA pyramid entry south of the Tay until kingdom come if it doesn't unfold in the manner they would prefer because they hold an effective veto over changes to the promotion playoff into the LL, but they have absolutely no control over club licensing. These two issues are not directly linked. As things stand the juniors should already be in from an SFA Board perspective, so why would the SFA Board block licensing applications from junior clubs at this point?

You only quoted the first few words of my post. First of all, the East Superleague joining could still be blocked even if EOS (& LL) agreed. But second, as pointed out various times, there was agreement on the west joining the pyramid, which was knocked back by the SJFA. They had their chance to get the WRJFA in there but didn't take it. So there is no valid argument to accept the license application at this point until the SJFA co-operates. I really want the west to come on board, but the ball is in the SJFA's court who should accept the offer whilst continue working on a solution for the east. So far there no reasonable solution for the ERJFA has been proposed, simple as that.

[LongTimeLurker]

19 minutes ago, gaz5 said:

...On the subject of the EoS "blocking" WRSJFA pyramid access, that is a falsehood in its entirety....

What I stated is that if the EoS had not objected to ERSJFA entry at tier 6, WRSJFA clubs like Petershill and Cumnock would already be in the pyramid this season and would have been so as part of a plan that had the full backing of the SFA CEO in PWG meetings. That is fact. It's reasonable enough to argue that the EoS had a very good reason for doing what they did and had the right to do so. You could also reasonably point out that the ERSJFA might still not have got in because of the split division format they adopted. It is not reasonable to pretend that the EoS didn't stick a spanner in the works on what the SFA Board wanted to happen this season. 

[craigkillie]

Had it not been for the intermediate dispute in 1926 leading to greater divide between seniors and juniors then teams like Cumnock and Petershill would most likely already be in the pyramid.

The GJL are clearly responisble for this.

[AlanCamelonfan]

51 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

What I stated is that if the EoS had not objected to ERSJFA entry at tier 6, WRSJFA clubs like Petershill and Cumnock would already be in the pyramid this season and would have been so as part of a plan that had the full backing of the SFA CEO in PWG meetings. That is fact. It's reasonable enough to argue that the EoS had a very good reason for doing what they did and had the right to do so. You could also reasonably point out that the ERSJFA might still not have got in because of the split division format they adopted. It is not reasonable to pretend that the EoS didn't stick a spanner in the works on what the SFA Board wanted to happen this season. 

They aren;t in because of TJ either you are thick or a wind up merchant