Junior football formed 1886, now facing oblivion. Where did it all go wrong?

[Glenconner]

22 minutes ago, San Starko Rover said:

Why did you guys start playing rugby in 2012?

Whatever 

[Hillonearth]

2 hours ago, Dindeleux said:

Firstly, and I say this as a fan of the Juniors and a (semi) regular attendee, there has been a lot of flak aimed at the Junior part of this forum for years regarding “junior thickos” but these threads about the possibly changes to the game at this level have given some of the most well thought out posts and discussions that I’ve seen on almost 13 years of this site.

Secondly, does anyone think that some fans will be pressuring their club to move away from Juniors into the pyramid simply because they don’t like the name Juniors and without really knowing the merit or implications of such a move? I ask this because, as noted on this thread, 12-18 months ago there was only a murmuring of the pyramid but plenty of passionate discussion around changing the name of the grade.

I don't think anyone takes the "junior thickos" thing seriously - it's normally trotted out by trying-too-hard perennial second-prizers who are desperately trying to get noticed by the cool kids on the GN forum...the kind that are trying to be box-office but cursed with a direct-to-video level of talent.

Regardless of the pyramid, I definitely think the name of the grade has been well overdue a revamp - the "juniors" tag is a misleading hangover of history. I think I've mentioned on here before about an ex of mine who was a teacher, and when it came up that I followed a junior team she said "Oh, you should come and see our school's team...they're meant to be quite good..." Errrrm....

Some teams - far from all - have the word "Juniors" as an intrinsic part of their name and nobody's suggesting they'd need to rename should they join the pyramid - certainly hasn't done Boca any harm...

 

[energyzone]

I am not arguing the juniors are better , I am saying I enjoy the juniors as they are and can’t see the big attraction to the pyramid, simply I haven’t been convinced the pyramid is better. 

That's because your team wins a major trophy almost every year!

[A.M]

6 hours ago, energyzone said:

11 hours ago, A.M said:

I am not arguing the juniors are better , I am saying I enjoy the juniors as they are and can’t see the big attraction to the pyramid, simply I haven’t been convinced the pyramid is better. 

That's because your team wins a major trophy almost every year!

No doubt that may have a bearing on my views, but each fan will have an opinion also based on their teams position and success I suppose....or maybe not 

[cmontheloknow]

7 hours ago, Hillonearth said:

I don't think anyone takes the "junior thickos" thing seriously - it's normally trotted out by trying-too-hard perennial second-prizers who are desperately trying to get noticed by the cool kids on the GN forum...the kind that are trying to be box-office but cursed with a direct-to-video level of talent.

Regardless of the pyramid, I definitely think the name of the grade has been well overdue a revamp - the "juniors" tag is a misleading hangover of history. I think I've mentioned on here before about an ex of mine who was a teacher, and when it came up that I followed a junior team she said "Oh, you should come and see our school's team...they're meant to be quite good..." Errrrm....

Some teams - far from all - have the word "Juniors" as an intrinsic part of their name and nobody's suggesting they'd need to rename should they join the pyramid - certainly hasn't done Boca any harm...

 

And Camelon have already said they won't be dropping the name Juniors from their name for the same reason!

[Guest]

7 hours ago, cmontheloknow said:

And Camelon have already said they won't be dropping the name Juniors from their name for the same reason!

I like The Mariners better....CLASSY.

[Garret Deasy]

On 5/3/2018 at 17:46, Goalie Hamish said:

Dinnae be offended, naebody is questioning people’s hard work for their ain club.  The point of this thread is to talk aboot what has caused the demise of Junior fitba and you can have fowk involved with their club who put their heart and soul into it, but cannae see the bigger picture and dinnae want anything to change ever.  You can be a hard grafter, put yer hand in yer pocket to help,  but be resistant to change at the same time and their posts on here show that. Thats whit holds the game back.

Committees. Junior football has for years been run through committees, all made up of members elected by the clubs.

We have committees for North, East and West Regions. Plus a 'management' committee above all three regions. 

I know these committees do things like draw names out of a hat for cup draws etc, and they will enforce discipline on players on the back of cards flashed at them. 

BUT, what else do they do?

Have any of these committees made ANY decisions in the last couple of years that have improved the junior game? 

Any decisions? Anything? Please God there is something. 

 

[santheman]

13 minutes ago, Garret Deasy said:

Committees. Junior football has for years been run through committees, all made up of members elected by the clubs.

We have committees for North, East and West Regions. Plus a 'management' committee above all three regions. 

I know these committees do things like draw names out of a hat for cup draws etc, and they will enforce discipline on players on the back of cards flashed at them. 

BUT, what else do they do?

Have any of these committees made ANY decisions in the last couple of years that have improved the junior game? 

Any decisions? Anything? Please God there is something. 

 

First of all do your research.

No major decisions are taken by committees. They put recommendations to the clubs.

It is the CLUBS who make the decisions

[GordonS]

I have a suggestion.

How about instead of all the self-flaggelation, on Saturdays we have a moratorium against posting in this or the other "why are the Juniors sh*te" thread? We can argue about it all week but come Saturdays we post about the game coming up, go to a game, post about the games we've been to. Remember why we love it.

Who's with me?

 

[waiting to hear crickets.]

[Glenconner]

On 5 May 2018 at 13:11, GordonS said:

I have a suggestion.

How about instead of all the self-flaggelation, on Saturdays we have a moratorium against posting in this or the other "why are the Juniors sh*te" thread? We can argue about it all week but come Saturdays we post about the game coming up, go to a game, post about the games we've been to. Remember why we love it.

Who's with me?

 

[waiting to hear crickets.]

Go to a game?

I'd say a third of folk posting on here might never been inside a Junior ground in decades. The other third is committee/management/players because outside of family and friends the club's support is non existent. There's teams on here that don't get a mention for months on end. That leaves about a third that turn up and pay into a Junior game. Interesting that very few post on P&B about Pollok who's average gate is 600+.

Maybe tells you something.

[Hillonearth]

4 minutes ago, Glenconner said:

Go to a game?

I'd say a third of folk posting on here might never been inside a Junior ground in decades. The other third is committee/management/players because outside of family and friends the club's support is non existent. There's teams on here that don't get a mention for months on end. That leaves about a third that turn up and pay into a Junior game. Interesting that very few post on P&B about Pollok who's average gate is 600+.

Maybe tells you something.

That's a good point - always got to be a degree of suspicion around somebody who's on here posting at 3pm on a Saturday! I suspect there are a minority of posters on threads such as this that are attracted more by the reorganisation aspect involved rather than the actual football.

For sure, some teams are over-represented on here in terms of numbers and vociferousness while others definitely under-represented - the latter probably because they have more active club forums or FB pages etc.

Pollok's a good example; they've got an online fan forum that most of their fans probably prefer to use rather than posting here. There's other black holes too - the entire North Region for starters - I imagine most of them post on the Fitba North forum in preference to P&B though.

[Jacksgranda]

56 minutes ago, Hillonearth said:

That's a good point - always got to be a degree of suspicion around somebody who's on here posting at 3pm on a Saturday! I suspect there are a minority of posters on threads such as this that are attracted more by the reorganisation aspect involved rather than the actual football.

For sure, some teams are over-represented on here in terms of numbers and vociferousness while others definitely under-represented - the latter probably because they have more active club forums or FB pages etc.

Pollok's a good example; they've got an online fan forum that most of their fans probably prefer to use rather than posting here. There's other black holes too - the entire North Region for starters - I imagine most of them post on the Fitba North forum in preference to P&B though.

"black holes" probably sums up the North Region, tbh...

[cmontheloknow]

2 hours ago, Hillonearth said:

That's a good point - always got to be a degree of suspicion around somebody who's on here posting at 3pm on a Saturday! I suspect there are a minority of posters on threads such as this that are attracted more by the reorganisation aspect involved rather than the actual football.

For sure, some teams are over-represented on here in terms of numbers and vociferousness while others definitely under-represented - the latter probably because they have more active club forums or FB pages etc.

Pollok's a good example; they've got an online fan forum that most of their fans probably prefer to use rather than posting here. There's other black holes too - the entire North Region for starters - I imagine most of them post on the Fitba North forum in preference to P&B though.

Not much of a fanbase up north though but yeah Fitba North much busier, even if it is Highland fans taking an interest in the local side.

Fitba North / PnB - the online version of the Junior/Senior divide, albeit a regional one!

[Glenconner]

31 minutes ago, cmontheloknow said:

Not much of a fanbase up north though but yeah Fitba North much busier, even if it is Highland fans taking an interest in the local side.

Fitba North / PnB - the online version of the Junior/Senior divide, albeit a regional one!

Fit like?

[Garret Deasy]

On 5/4/2018 at 23:21, santheman said:

First of all do your research.

No major decisions are taken by committees. They put recommendations to the clubs.

It is the CLUBS who make the decisions

Thanks Santheman for your insight. You clearly know your way around the role of junior clubs and no doubt the committees. 

You do say however that committees do not make "Major decisions". It would be useful to understand what non major decisions they have made in the last couple of years ?

And the "recommendations" you refer to from the various committees that have been put to the clubs would be worth knowing about. 

I am sure these can be found in the minutes of the committee meetings. 

I hope that answering this will not create any conflict with the confidentiality of any positions you may hold within the game. 

[santheman]

1 hour ago, Garret Deasy said:

Thanks Santheman for your insight. You clearly know your way around the role of junior clubs and no doubt the committees. 

You do say however that committees do not make "Major decisions". It would be useful to understand what non major decisions they have made in the last couple of years ?

And the "recommendations" you refer to from the various committees that have been put to the clubs would be worth knowing about. 

I am sure these can be found in the minutes of the committee meetings. 

I hope that answering this will not create any conflict with the confidentiality of any positions you may hold within the game. 

Sorry to disappoint you GD but I don't hold any position within the Junior game.I was secretary at Larkhall Thistle many moons ago so it was my job to know the rules and constitution of both the West Region and SJFA.

Non major decisions?   Hearing protests by clubs for whatever reason, disciplinary appeals,  all mundane day to day stuff really.

Recommendations? 

The one that immediately springs to mind is the old retention rule where the football hierarchy suggested that it be binned because it might break employment law. Clubs  informed of the position and  subsequently binned  (much to my delight)  although there wasn't really much choice in the matter.

Likewise with the current pyramid situation it will be discussed and a recommendation will be put to the EGM and the clubs will decide how to progress based on what they hear. Some will be delighted some will be disappointed with what's decided  but that's democracy

Sure someone can come up with plenty more examples for you.

 

[Jambo'ness]

14 hours ago, santheman said:

Sorry to disappoint you GD but I don't hold any position within the Junior game.I was secretary at Larkhall Thistle many moons ago so it was my job to know the rules and constitution of both the West Region and SJFA.

Non major decisions?   Hearing protests by clubs for whatever reason, disciplinary appeals,  all mundane day to day stuff really.

Recommendations? 

The one that immediately springs to mind is the old retention rule where the football hierarchy suggested that it be binned because it might break employment law. Clubs  informed of the position and  subsequently binned  (much to my delight)  although there wasn't really much choice in the matter.

Likewise with the current pyramid situation it will be discussed and a recommendation will be put to the EGM and the clubs will decide how to progress based on what they hear. Some will be delighted some will be disappointed with what's decided  but that's democracy

Sure someone can come up with plenty more examples for you.

 

Always felt that a decent lawyer could also have shredded the arguments for the rule regarding reinstatement for the same reasons.

[santheman]

44 minutes ago, Jambo'ness said:

Always felt that a decent lawyer could also have shredded the arguments for the rule regarding reinstatement for the same reasons.

I'.m sure that will also become a thing of the past in the not too distant future.

[Garret Deasy]

On 5/6/2018 at 21:56, santheman said:

Sorry to disappoint you GD but I don't hold any position within the Junior game.I was secretary at Larkhall Thistle many moons ago so it was my job to know the rules and constitution of both the West Region and SJFA.

Non major decisions?   Hearing protests by clubs for whatever reason, disciplinary appeals,  all mundane day to day stuff really.

Recommendations? 

The one that immediately springs to mind is the old retention rule where the football hierarchy suggested that it be binned because it might break employment law. Clubs  informed of the position and  subsequently binned  (much to my delight)  although there wasn't really much choice in the matter.

Likewise with the current pyramid situation it will be discussed and a recommendation will be put to the EGM and the clubs will decide how to progress based on what they hear. Some will be delighted some will be disappointed with what's decided  but that's democracy

Sure someone can come up with plenty more examples for you.

 

Yes retention is a good example. It would appear the management committee or some regional committee highlighted at the time the fact that retention could not be sustained. So I presume the management committee would have prepared a detailed argument and then presented this to the clubs. Their advice probably was  included, and then the clubs voted.

Of course the final decision was with the clubs, but the issue was identified at committee level and the arguments prepared there. 

When I referred to decisions by committees this is an example of what I meant. Decisions are not about imposing the will of a few on the many. It is deciding to prepare the arguments as to how the game could be improved and why, with all sides of the argument being considered.

One decision I am aware of is when a document was presented to the regional committees about possible change of season (commonly referred to as summer football) it was thrown in the bucket by Scott Robertson (West supremo) , who then informed his member clubs verbally he had decided 'we' weren't interested' also writing to Tom Johnstone to that effect.  

Given the contrast in these two approaches, it would be assumed that a thought through report prepared and circulated to the clubs would be the basis of any significant decisions for the game. Without such detail and understanding of the consequences of all possible decisions clubs can only revert to the 'hands up for summer football' type of question. 

Who needs facts when you have people with entrenched opinions?

[santheman]

11 hours ago, Garret Deasy said:

Yes retention is a good example. It would appear the management committee or some regional committee highlighted at the time the fact that retention could not be sustained. So I presume the management committee would have prepared a detailed argument and then presented this to the clubs. Their advice probably was  included, and then the clubs voted.

Of course the final decision was with the clubs, but the issue was identified at committee level and the arguments prepared there. 

When I referred to decisions by committees this is an example of what I meant. Decisions are not about imposing the will of a few on the many. It is deciding to prepare the arguments as to how the game could be improved and why, with all sides of the argument being considered.

One decision I am aware of is when a document was presented to the regional committees about possible change of season (commonly referred to as summer football) it was thrown in the bucket by Scott Robertson (West supremo) , who then informed his member clubs verbally he had decided 'we' weren't interested' also writing to Tom Johnstone to that effect.  

Given the contrast in these two approaches, it would be assumed that a thought through report prepared and circulated to the clubs would be the basis of any significant decisions for the game. Without such detail and understanding of the consequences of all possible decisions clubs can only revert to the 'hands up for summer football' type of question. 

Who needs facts when you have people with entrenched opinions?

That was after my time GD so I don't know what the document contained or what club (s) presented it but Scott Robertson had no right to do that and it should have gone through the proper channels. 

If the club (s) were unhappy at the response they could have added it to the agenda for the AGM where it would have had to be discussed and it would also have given them time to canvass all the other clubs beforehand.

The proof of that was the successful efforts of some clubs to reorganize the West leagues which was met with the same initial reaction but was eventually passed at the AGM along with publishing fixture lists (which is another story and will undoubtedly come back to haunt him!!).

Sometimes the hierarchy need reminded of who pays the wages.