Tibbermoresaint Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 2 minutes ago, renton said: It's not about absolution because fundamentally the criminal justice system shouldn't be predicated on punishment. It should be predicated on rehabilitation to the degree that this is possible, and only after that incarceration to protect the rest of society. You don't want to stop people being Junkies. You want to punish them for being Junkies. I want to prevent people being junkies. I want to prevent people being the victims of crime. -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tibbermoresaint Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 5 minutes ago, renton said: It's not about absolution because fundamentally the criminal justice system shouldn't be predicated on punishment. It most certainly should be. There have to be penalties for transgressing society's rules. -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross. Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 35 minutes ago, Tibbermoresaint said: People are responsible for their own actions. Sometimes those actions have painful consequences. That's tough. If you are ever robbed or mugged by a junkie, and have to face some very painful consequences as a result, then that's just tough. I'd absolve that particular junkie of all blame associated to the robbing and or mugging. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renton Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 4 minutes ago, Tibbermoresaint said: I want to prevent people being junkies. I want to prevent people being the victims of crime. 2 minutes ago, Tibbermoresaint said: It most certainly should be. There have to be penalties for transgressing society's rules. No you don't. Ever stricter and harsher penalties for breaking the law have never once stopped a crime. The existence of Death Row would be a cursory proof of that even if multiple studies on the effects of incarceration on recidivism didn't exist. The penalties for transgressions are incarceration - the removal of freedom, but those penalties need to be weighted in such a way that those being penalised benefit in the long term. In the case of drug addictions we can penalise people for the crimes they commit in order to fuel their addictions but it does nothing to alleviate the underlying issues of their addictions, without which actions you will simply repeat the cycle ad nauseam. People don't just stop being Junkies, willpower alone is insufficient to the task. We need to treat addiction like the health issue it is. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tibbermoresaint Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 2 minutes ago, Ross. said: If you are ever robbed or mugged by a junkie, and have to face some very painful consequences as a result, then that's just tough. I'd absolve that particular junkie of all blame associated to the robbing and or mugging. You're a lunatic. -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tibbermoresaint Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 2 minutes ago, renton said: No you don't. Ever stricter and harsher penalties for breaking the law have never once stopped a crime. The existence of Death Row would be a cursory proof of that even if multiple studies on the effects of incarceration on recidivism didn't exist. The penalties for transgressions are incarceration - the removal of freedom, but those penalties need to be weighted in such a way that those being penalised benefit in the long term. In the case of drug addictions we can penalise people for the crimes they commit in order to fuel their addictions but it does nothing to alleviate the underlying issues of their addictions, without which actions you will simply repeat the cycle ad nauseam. People don't just stop being Junkies, willpower alone is insufficient to the task. We need to treat addiction like the health issue it is. Why do you obsess about the perpetrators of crime and not the victims? You're clearly intelligent but woefully misguided. Addiction isn't a health issue. It's a choice. -3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renton Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 Just now, Tibbermoresaint said: Why do you obsess about the perpetrators of crime and not the victims? You're clearly intelligent but woefully misguided. Addiction isn't a health issue. It's a choice. If addiction were a choice it wouldn't be called addiction. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tibbermoresaint Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 1 minute ago, renton said: If addiction were a choice it wouldn't be called addiction. If it wasn't a choice we'd all be addicts. Or none of us would be. -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dons_1988 Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 I'm sure many victims of crimes perpetrated by junkies would be unhappy at a policy of just leave the junkies to it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tibbermoresaint Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 6 minutes ago, Dons_1988 said: I'm sure many victims of crimes perpetrated by junkies would be unhappy at a policy of just leave the junkies to it. Explain to them that junkies have inherent destructive impulses and they'll understand. Who wouldn't? -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dons_1988 Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 6 minutes ago, Tibbermoresaint said: Explain to them that junkies have inherent destructive impulses and they'll understand. Who wouldn't? Well they'd probably say if they have an inherent destructive nature why are you leaving them to rot and repeat the exact same thing again. Or do you just want to lock them all up? Euthanasia? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gifted Sub Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 Addiction isn't a health issue. It's a choice.Of all the daft things ever posted on this site, this is probably the daftest.Have a fucking word, man. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tibbermoresaint Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 1 minute ago, Dons_1988 said: Well they'd probably say if they have an inherent destructive nature why are you leaving them to rot and repeat the exact same thing again. Or do you just want to lock them all up? Euthanasia? Which part of inherent are you not getting? -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renton Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 4 minutes ago, Tibbermoresaint said: Which part of inherent are you not getting? Being inherently predisposed to addiction doesn't mean you can't control the impulse with the correct support and treatment. A combination of inherited and outside social factors might push you into that hole, but it requires a wider intervention to get you back out of the hole to a degree where you can function. Throwing the book at people when they are in the bottom of the hole will not help get them out, nor will it serve to prevent them committing further crimes to further their addiction. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Moonster Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 49 minutes ago, Tibbermoresaint said: Read this thread. There are plenty of posts attempting to direct blame away from junkies. Apparently inherent destructive impulses are the latest to blame. No. I've been reading the thread. You made the claim that folk are trying to absolve junkies of all blame, I asked you to back that up and you can't. There are plenty of posts giving reasons as to how people become junkies, but none of those posts say that the person themselves isn't partly to blame. 29 minutes ago, Tibbermoresaint said: If it wasn't a choice we'd all be addicts. Or none of us would be. You clearly don't understand what addiction is. It's not the same for everyone. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tibbermoresaint Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 3 minutes ago, renton said: Being inherently predisposed to addiction doesn't mean you can't control the impulse with the correct support and treatment. A combination of inherited and outside social factors might push you into that hole, but it requires a wider intervention to get you back out of the hole to a degree where you can function. Throwing the book at people when they are in the bottom of the hole will not help get them out, nor will it serve to prevent them committing further crimes to further their addiction. So these impulses simultaneously can and can't be controlled? -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tibbermoresaint Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 1 minute ago, The Moonster said: I've been reading the thread. You made the claim that folk are trying to absolve junkies of all blame, I asked you to back that up and you can't. There are plenty of posts giving reasons as to how people become junkies, but none of those posts say that the person themselves isn't partly to blame. You clearly don't understand what addiction is. It's not the same for everyone. I haven't seen many posts where it's said that the individual is entirely to blame. I have seen plenty of posts where the intent is to deflect from this. I think most people understand what addiction is. It's a voluntary thing. -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renton Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 1 minute ago, Tibbermoresaint said: So these impulses simultaneously can and can't be controlled? The point being that the decision to quit is insufficient in of itself in many cases. Support is required, medical help is required, a change in circumstance is required. Hope is required. Withput these the destructive behaviour will likely continue and even beyond that the impulses that lead to addiction do not go away. Simply that people who come out the other end have a far greater awareness of themselves and their triggers and seek actively to avoid them. Typically that awareness is missing when people get into a destructive cycle of behaviour. Or are so desperate that they simply take any out they can find. Dependency follows. It is not voluntary. This is accepted medical fact. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Moonster Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 3 minutes ago, Tibbermoresaint said: I haven't seen many posts where it's said that the individual is entirely to blame. I have seen plenty of posts where the intent is to deflect from this. I think most people understand what addiction is. It's a voluntary thing. You could just say "I can't provide you with the post you're requesting as it doesn't exist" and this would be much easier. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tibbermoresaint Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 3 minutes ago, The Moonster said: You could just say "I can't provide you with the post you're requesting as it doesn't exist" and this would be much easier. Sure. But I thought you'd prefer facts. Apologies if I'm wrong. -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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