Strikers coming through

[TheScarf]

3 minutes ago, Satoshi said:

Your point is that a nation with a far worse team managed to produce one good player who left immediately and was trained in England?

Er, great point there.

Maybe there is something in Scotland produces more of a certain player, e.g. world class full backs, and less centre forwards. Maybe it's partly our system, but it will still be predominantly random.

Ireland will remain a nation we can learn virtually nothing from.

Hoping Rory Wilson can buck the trend. But all this chat about how bad our youth development is and how we arent getting players a chance seems anathema to how our national team are currently performing, and the amount of exciting young players we have. Your complaints are coming decades too late.

He plays for the South Ireland national team and is better than any striker Scotland currently have at their disposal.  I couldn't give a fucking cunt where he was coached.

Again, you've spectacularly missed my point, a point that everyone else seems to have gotten.

[Satoshi]

23 hours ago, TheScarf said:

That Evan Ferguson absolutely banging in the goals for a Brighton team on the up.  There’s talk of United bidding for him this summer.
 

How the f**k do these smaller nations than us do it? Where are they finding these players? 

Small nations occasionally have good players?

It helps when they pretty much immediately leave their footballing backwater and go somewhere else for proper development.

Yeah, great point.

[craigkillie]

16 hours ago, RobbieD said:

I refuse to accept Scotland doesn’t have them.

Other nations have clubs who actually give youngsters a game. SPFL clubs sell their young players at the first sign of a pound note. The majority are too scared to try young players from their youth teams. There is going to have to come a time when clubs are forced to play a certain amount of Scottish players. 

Clubs don't have a choice when English clubs come in for their young players - legally they cannot be on long term contracts while they are young, and in most cases they will be threatening to leave for a compensation fee and are therefore sold so that the selling club has a bit more control over the structure of the fees.

Ferguson himself was in the same boat in that Bohemians sold him to England aged 16.

Edited May 22, 2023 by craigkillie

[RobbieD]

On 22/05/2023 at 13:02, ArabFC said:

You're talking about an Irish kid sold by his club to Brighton after 4 games.

Kids get a game if they're good enough. This kid is. Ours, not so much.

I never mentioned the Irish kid.

Absolute pish that they’ll get a game if they are good enough. The top clubs are not bringing through strikers. You need experience of playing against better players to become better. Who was the last striker the Old Firm gave a chance to? They can’t afford to risk it now. Same in England. Out of the traditional top 6, I can only think of Marcus Rashford and Harry Kane coming through in about 10 years. One got a game because about 6 other strikers were injured (could have actually been more) and the other had about 5 loan moves before Tim Sherwood took a gamble on him.

 

[RobbieD]

On 22/05/2023 at 16:52, craigkillie said:

Clubs don't have a choice when English clubs come in for their young players - legally they cannot be on long term contracts while they are young, and in most cases they will be threatening to leave for a compensation fee and are therefore sold so that the selling club has a bit more control over the structure of the fees.

Ferguson himself was in the same boat in that Bohemians sold him to England aged 16.

Could always offer a choice of actually playing proper professional football. 

[craigkillie]

You can't play a player until they are 16 and most of them are leaving round about that age.

[velo army]

58 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

You can't play a player until they are 16 and most of them are leaving round about that age.

This tbh. As much as I also like to wag my finger at the OF, they are hamstrung by the fact that players who would have been playing for them by now are already offski to the riches of EPL U-23s. 

 

[RobbieD]

5 hours ago, craigkillie said:

You can't play a player until they are 16 and most of them are leaving round about that age.

Are they?  Clubs don’t have youth teams with strikers in them now apparently.

[craigkillie]

12 minutes ago, RobbieD said:

Are they?  Clubs don’t have youth teams with strikers in them now apparently.

The good ones are leaving at that age. The ones left at clubs by sort of 18 typically aren't going to be elite level players, with the exception of the odd one or two who slip through the net.

[RandomGuy.]

On 24/05/2023 at 15:15, velo army said:

This tbh. As much as I also like to wag my finger at the OF, they are hamstrung by the fact that players who would have been playing for them by now are already offski to the riches of EPL U-23s. 

 

Aye. Rangers "lost" both Dire Mebude and Rory Wilson to the EPL at 16 (Wilson not officially moving until 17). Both should be playing senior football somewhere next season. 

Both wouldve played for them this season if they'd stayed.

Ive no idea why people still think game time up here is going to the win the day. These EPL sides are identitying kids at 14 and showing them massive stadiums, world class facilities, and telling them theyll be earning £100k+ a year before theyre 18.

Its just delusion and/or petty lashing out that sees people criticise Scottish clubs for this. Same when you get the articles about how theres so few U21s starting in our league, its because 90% of the ones good enough for that are away down south as soon as they can.

[Black Pennel]

39 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

Rangers "lost" Dire Mebude

Is that really his name ?

I could've played alongside him.

Dire & Woeful in the midfield.

Didier Deschamps would've been shitting himself. Laughing.

[Theroadlesstravelled]

3 hours ago, RandomGuy. said:

Aye. Rangers "lost" both Dire Mebude and Rory Wilson to the EPL at 16 (Wilson not officially moving until 17). Both should be playing senior football somewhere next season. 

Both wouldve played for them this season if they'd stayed.

Ive no idea why people still think game time up here is going to the win the day. These EPL sides are identitying kids at 14 and showing them massive stadiums, world class facilities, and telling them theyll be earning £100k+ a year before theyre 18.

Its just delusion and/or petty lashing out that sees people criticise Scottish clubs for this. Same when you get the articles about how theres so few U21s starting in our league, its because 90% of the ones good enough for that are away down south as soon as they can.

 

If they had stayed then they'd be playing for the Rangers B team against the likes of Spartans, and coached by an ex-lower league Scottish footballer / driving instructor.

No wonder they pick world class facilities, great coaches, great players.

[albagubrath]

6 hours ago, Black Pennel said:

Is that really his name ?

I could've played alongside him.

Dire & Woeful in the midfield.

Didier Deschamps would've been shitting himself. Laughing.

No, it’s Adire, Dire (pronounced dee-ray) for short.

[albagubrath]

3 hours ago, Theroadlesstravelled said:

 

If they had stayed then they'd be playing for the Rangers B team against the likes of Spartans, and coached by an ex-lower league Scottish footballer / driving instructor.

No wonder they pick world class facilities, great coaches, great players.

Exactly. I can’t understand why anyone can claim with a straight face that these kids would be playing first team for them, the evidence strongly points to anything but that situation. There have been literally dozens of occasions this year (and every year) where either half of the OF (and indeed non OF teams) were multiple goals up with 10-15mins left and put on aging 30+ pros over the young players on their bench.

It’s up there with the narrative that Doak was a first team player at Celtic where he had about 20 minutes total across 3 games to try and get him not to leave. If he had signed a contract he would have been papped straight back to the youth team.

Scottish teams are horrendous at youth development and there is no evidence whatsoever to suggest it’s anything to do with ‘the best’ kids all going to England at young ages; if anything that is a result of how poor our clubs are at development and how long they have been so poor. If I was an agent with Scottish clients I would get them out as soon as possible.

[RandomGuy.]

34 minutes ago, albagubrath said:

Exactly. I can’t understand why anyone can claim with a straight face that these kids would be playing first team for them, the evidence strongly points to anything but that situation. There have been literally dozens of occasions this year (and every year) where either half of the OF (and indeed non OF teams) were multiple goals up with 10-15mins left and put on aging 30+ pros over the young players on their bench.

It’s up there with the narrative that Doak was a first team player at Celtic where he had about 20 minutes total across 3 games to try and get him not to leave. If he had signed a contract he would have been papped straight back to the youth team.

Scottish teams are horrendous at youth development and there is no evidence whatsoever to suggest it’s anything to do with ‘the best’ kids all going to England at young ages; if anything that is a result of how poor our clubs are at development and how long they have been so poor. If I was an agent with Scottish clients I would get them out as soon as possible.

Celtic are abysmal at playing Scottish youths under Postecoglu, but Rangers have given more chances. Devine and King two who have had runs in the side, while Alex Lowry is always there or thereabouts (despite rumoured attitude problems). If Robbie Ure is getting games for them then Mebude/Wilson definitely would.

Are Celtic and Rangers the only clubs that can produce Scottish youngsters?

Dylan Smith (Ross County), Rory MacLeod (Dundee Utd), Bobby Wales (Kilmarnock), David Watson (Kilmarnock), Leon King (Rangers), Ryan Duncan (Aberdeen), Kieran Offord (St Mirren), Max Johnston (Motherwell), Lewis Neilson (Hearts), Kai Fotheringham (Dundee Utd), Stuart McKinstry (Motherwell), Adam Montgomery (St Johnstone) and Connor Barron (Aberdeen), have all played 10+ games for Premierships sides this season. With, from memory, 6 playing 20+, including Leon King playing all 6 Champions League games for Rangers.

Edited May 27, 2023 by RandomGuy.

[Satoshi]

1 hour ago, albagubrath said:

Exactly. I can’t understand why anyone can claim with a straight face that these kids would be playing first team for them, the evidence strongly points to anything but that situation. There have been literally dozens of occasions this year (and every year) where either half of the OF (and indeed non OF teams) were multiple goals up with 10-15mins left and put on aging 30+ pros over the young players on their bench.

It’s up there with the narrative that Doak was a first team player at Celtic where he had about 20 minutes total across 3 games to try and get him not to leave. If he had signed a contract he would have been papped straight back to the youth team.

Scottish teams are horrendous at youth development and there is no evidence whatsoever to suggest it’s anything to do with ‘the best’ kids all going to England at young ages; if anything that is a result of how poor our clubs are at development and how long they have been so poor. If I was an agent with Scottish clients I would get them out as soon as possible.

Horrendous compared to who?

Most of our national team players were wholly or fully developed in the Scottish system.

Our national team is currently doing very well.

[albagubrath]

1 hour ago, Satoshi said:

Horrendous compared to who?

Most of our national team players were wholly or fully developed in the Scottish system.

Our national team is currently doing very well.

There are screeds of articles on this, in fact there was one just a few weeks ago about the number of Scottish u21 players who had started a game in the top division.

https://twitter.com/the_young_team/status/1635025512308568064?s=46&t=p0h1zSMxB4W7UZjzgAiO2Q

I can’t find the source but from memory we are averaging around 6.5% of total minutes to u21 players whereas peers like Denmark and Croatia are 15/16%.

Look at today, neither rangers nor Celtic have anything to play for but neither has chosen to give opportunities to young players (McRorie is 25!). I’m not saying they are the worst by any stretch of the imagination, but they do tend to have the absolute top youth prospects in the country and they rarely turn those into first team starters. 

 

[Satoshi]

1 hour ago, albagubrath said:

There are screeds of articles on this, in fact there was one just a few weeks ago about the number of Scottish u21 players who had started a game in the top division.

https://twitter.com/the_young_team/status/1635025512308568064?s=46&t=p0h1zSMxB4W7UZjzgAiO2Q

I can’t find the source but from memory we are averaging around 6.5% of total minutes to u21 players whereas peers like Denmark and Croatia are 15/16%.

Look at today, neither rangers nor Celtic have anything to play for but neither has chosen to give opportunities to young players (McRorie is 25!). I’m not saying they are the worst by any stretch of the imagination, but they do tend to have the absolute top youth prospects in the country and they rarely turn those into first team starters. 

 

First reply to that article says it's inaccurate...

Anyway minutes to under 21 players is an imperfect measure, the spfl is far stronger than any other league of circa 5 million people. I'm sure Ireland and Finland give games to u21 players, but it won't mean much as their leagues are of relatively poor quality.

The ultimate measure is how good our national team is, in Croatia and Denmark you picked two similar sized nations who are better than us*, but there are many other similar sized nations (and bigger) in Europe doing far worse.

*Although no doubt currently better, Scotland has a superior head to head record against both Denmark and Croatia.

[albagubrath]

21 minutes ago, Satoshi said:

First reply to that article says it's inaccurate...

Anyway minutes to under 21 players is an imperfect measure, the spfl is far stronger than any other league of circa 5 million people. I'm sure Ireland and Finland give games to u21 players, but it won't mean much as their leagues are of relatively poor quality.

The ultimate measure is how good our national team is, in Croatia and Denmark you picked two similar sized nations who are better than us*, but there are many other similar sized nations (and bigger) in Europe doing far worse.

*Although no doubt currently better, Scotland has a superior head to head record against both Denmark and Croatia.

The first reply is incorrect, the stats are correct. It is for Scottish players only.

If you think we are brilliant at youth development fair enough, I think you’ll find yourself in a pretty small club.

[Satoshi]

46 minutes ago, albagubrath said:

The first reply is incorrect, the stats are correct. It is for Scottish players only.

If you think we are brilliant at youth development fair enough, I think you’ll find yourself in a pretty small club.

I never said we were brilliant, we are pretty good and certainly far from 'horrendous'.

The discussion doesn't benefit from hyperbole, Scotland could undoubtedly be better at youth development. I would love for us to be like Croatia or Uruguay but sadly our fa is too weak, our clubs too powerful, and English clubs have unfettered access to our players (they don't for any other country outside the British isles).

It's a difficult situation to be in, we should focus on incremental improvements but accept that our best young players will almost always go to England. Sometimes it will work out, sometimes it won't.