Pyramid 2019/2020

[GordonS]

12 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Strange how every club from regional to national in the last 25 years has seen an increase in attendance.

They were all moving up a tier, and playing clubs with more supporters, so it's not a fair comparison.

11 minutes ago, Cyclizine said:

I don't really think playing 4 times matters, I'd go and see County play at home anyway. I don't really care who were playing, unless it's a close rival (when you'd get more fans anyway).

IMO you gte the same home fans but fewer away fans in a league in which you face each other four times a season. There's much less novelty factor and it's too easy to say "ach, I'll go next time."

9 minutes ago, Enigma said:

As a fan of a tier 3 club I would absolutely NOT want to play in some pishy regional league with shite like Kelty and Bonnyrigg. The trips to Stranraer etc are fantastic. The financial gap between tier 2 and 3 is big enough without regionalising. Teams would be facing financial cataclysm if it were a shitty regional league they were being demoted to from the Championship.

You're reaching past tier 4 to pick out the 4th placed club in tier 5 annd the winner of a tier 6 league. Cherrypicking much?

FWIW, both clubs would bring bigger supports to your ground than half the clubs in your league at present. 

FWIW I agree that tier 3 is too high for regionalisation, but tier 4 would do just fine.

[Cyclizine]

3 minutes ago, GordonS said:

There were more Stoneyburn fans at Harthill last night for a consolation cup group stage match than Albion Rovers fans at Stranraer when I was there for a league match not so long ago, or Dumbarton fans at Peterhead for a Scottish Cup tie. I think fans of tier 3 and 4 clubs are wrong, but there you go. Among SPFL clubs there's probably more support for a national tier 5 than even a regional tier 4. 

But how many fans in total were there at the matches involving the SPFL clubs? I'd guess significantly more than any of the other games. Like it or not, there's prestige in playing nationally. It's a non-starter to suggest regionalising Leagues 1 and 2.

[mcruic]

3 minutes ago, Cyclizine said:

But how many fans in total were there at the matches involving the SPFL clubs? I'd guess significantly more than any of the other games. Like it or not, there's prestige in playing nationally. It's a non-starter to suggest regionalising Leagues 1 and 2.

If there was really prestige, attendances would be higher than 3 or 4 hundred in League 2.  A town the size of Stirling, and less than 600 fans average for the season is pretty poor, and doesn't suggest prestige.

Edited May 7, 2019 by mcruic

[FairWeatherFan]

3 minutes ago, mcruic said:

If there was really prestige, attendances would be higher than 3 or 4 hundred in League 2.

Based on what?

[mcruic]

2 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Based on what?

OK, so 504 was the average, but half of the clubs had averages in the 3 and 400s, as did Stranraer in League 1.  My point is, more than 500 people would turn up if there was prestige involved.

Edited May 7, 2019 by mcruic

[GordonS]

1 minute ago, Cyclizine said:

But how many fans in total were there at the matches involving the SPFL clubs? I'd guess significantly more than any of the other games. Like it or not, there's prestige in playing nationally. It's a non-starter to suggest regionalising Leagues 1 and 2.

I don't understand what prestige even means in this. Does it mean more money? More fans? Better players? Better youth development? Better facilities? No. 

 

Tier 4 South

Albion Rovers

Queens Park

Clyde

Annan

Edinburgh City

Stirling

Cowdenbeath

Auchinleck Talbot

East Kilbride

Pollok

 

Tier 4 North

Brechin

Elgin

Cove

Formartine

Brora

Fraserburgh

Inverurie

Wick

Forres

Buckie

 

Those would be at least as popular and profitable as what we have now. But the completely illusory sense of status that fans of part-time SPFL clubs have means they'd never accept it.

[Cyclizine]

4 minutes ago, GordonS said:

I don't understand what prestige even means in this. Does it mean more money? More fans? Better players? Better youth development? Better facilities? No. 

 

Tier 4 South

Albion Rovers

Queens Park

Clyde

Annan

Edinburgh City

Stirling

Cowdenbeath

Auchinleck Talbot

East Kilbride

Pollok

 

Tier 4 North

Brechin

Elgin

Cove

Formartine

Brora

Fraserburgh

Inverurie

Wick

Forres

Buckie

 

Those would be at least as popular and profitable as what we have now. But the completely illusory sense of status that fans of part-time SPFL clubs have means they'd never accept it.

I'm sorry, but that North Division would not be as popular as League 2 is currently. You've also promoted more clubs into the north division. Try doing it again, but with an equal split and you'll see how hard it is to form two regionalised divisions with the geography of Scotland.

[mcruic]

It should be 3 regional divisions (With the geography of Scotland).

So, 3 national divisions (12-10-10)

3 regional divisions at Tier 4 (16 teams?)

Then regional below this (14 teams each, addressing previous concerns that 30 matches was too many)?

[Cyclizine]

12 minutes ago, GordonS said:

I don't understand what prestige even means in this. Does it mean more money? More fans? Better players? Better youth development? Better facilities? No. 

If you can't see how playing in a national league is more prestigious than a regional one, I'm not sure what I can say.

"Hi, potential sponsor, we're a football club playing in the Scottish Professional Football League..." v "Hi, potential sponsor, we're a football club playing in the Scottish Regional League Northeast..."

Ask any club who have moved from HFL to the SFL/SPFL if they'd return.

[mcruic]

2 minutes ago, Cyclizine said:

If you can't see how playing in a national league is more prestigious than a regional one, I'm not sure what I can say.

"Hi, potential sponsor, we're a football club playing in the Scottish Professional Football League..." v "Hi, potential sponsor, we're a football club playing in the Scottish Regional League Northeast..."

Ask any club who have moved from HFL to the SFL/SPFL if they'd return.

I think you're missing the point - the regional leagues would still be in the SPFL, so it would still be League 2 ,only it would be SPFL League 2 North, League 2 West, League 2 East.

Clubs wouldn't go back to HFL, because it's a step down the pyramid - so that's a different issue entirely.  It's not about prestige for them - it's about playing at the highest level possible.

 

 

[FairWeatherFan]

7 minutes ago, mcruic said:

I think you're missing the point - the regional leagues would still be in the SPFL, so it would still be League 2 ,only it would be SPFL League 2 North, League 2 West, League 2 East.

Clubs wouldn't go back to HFL, because it's a step down the pyramid - so that's a different issue entirely.  It's not about prestige for them - it's about playing at the highest level possible.

 

 

Definitely see the SPFL splitting their cash 80 ways instead of 42. Or is the mythical increased attendance over less games going to cover that as well?

[mcruic]

It could be that only the Top 3 or 4 teams in each regional Tier 4 league could be eligible for prize money at the end of the season. The Tier 4 leagues would be like the current Lowland and Highland Leagues - which are managing fine last time I checked.

The thing is, there is money now to keep all the clubs in Scotland running.  This same money will be there next year.

Every other country in the world has a pyramid system. The reason Scotland doesn't is pig-headedness and a "can't do" attitude.

 

Edited May 7, 2019 by mcruic

[Cyclizine]

15 minutes ago, mcruic said:

I think you're missing the point - the regional leagues would still be in the SPFL, so it would still be League 2 ,only it would be SPFL League 2 North, League 2 West, League 2 East.

Clubs wouldn't go back to HFL, because it's a step down the pyramid - so that's a different issue entirely.  It's not about prestige for them - it's about playing at the highest level possible.

 

 

In that case then, why don't we regionalise at Level 2, or even 1, like Germany back in the day? Then everyone can play at the same level. Attendances and profits will be massive!

Seriously though, a Scottish League 1 North and South won't be as prestigious as a nationwide division. The clubs don't want regionalisation, the fans don't want it, why persist with trying to force it through? The priority should be a working pyramid below the SPFL first.

[mcruic]

6 minutes ago, Cyclizine said:

In that case then, why don't we regionalise at Level 2, or even 1, like Germany back in the day? Then everyone can play at the same level. Attendances and profits will be massive!

Seriously though, a Scottish League 1 North and South won't be as prestigious as a nationwide division. The clubs don't want regionalisation, the fans don't want it, why persist with trying to force it through? The priority should be a working pyramid below the SPFL first.

A working pyramid beneath the current SPFL is not possible due to the small size of the SPFL League 2, and trying to crowbar 3 regions (North/West/East) into 2 (Highland/Lowland).

There is too much of a bottleneck at the Tier 4/Tier 5 boundary.  There should be automatic promotion/relegation of 3 clubs per season between Tiers 4 and 5 (2 with the current half-pyramid).

 

Edited May 7, 2019 by mcruic

[GordonS]

20 minutes ago, Cyclizine said:

I'm sorry, but that North Division would not be as popular as League 2 is currently. You've also promoted more clubs into the north division. Try doing it again, but with an equal split and you'll see how hard it is to form two regionalised divisions with the geography of Scotland.

So you don't even know that a north-south line has already been defined by the SFA? That's the line I used, obvioulsy.

And we already have two regionalised divisions, just at one tier lower than that example. So I don't understand your reply at all.

15 minutes ago, Cyclizine said:

If you can't see how playing in a national league is more prestigious than a regional one, I'm not sure what I can say.

"Hi, potential sponsor, we're a football club playing in the Scottish Professional Football League..." v "Hi, potential sponsor, we're a football club playing in the Scottish Regional League Northeast..."

Ask any club who have moved from HFL to the SFL/SPFL if they'd return.

"We'll have more local derbies and more away supporters, so your adverts would be seen by a larger number of people." How many sponsors of football clubs are national companies? Most are local, and any north-south line you draw would work fine. There would also be lower costs for clubs.

Asking current teams and their current fans is missing the point. There are players playing in more regionalised leagues because they don't want the national travel or it doesn't fit with their jobs. There are fans not going to away games because it's too far. Did Buckie really want to go up? Interviews with their fans suggest very much not. Did Brora want to go up? From what I've heard from their fans, no, they didn't. 

Cove are a bit of an exception, they're desperate to go up because they have no fans anyway and they're as welcome in the HL as a fart in a spacesuit.

The only clubs who like it this way are those who regard non-league clubs as "diddy", even when they have more fans and turf them out of the Scottish Cup. 

"Prestige" is that plumped-up sense of self-importance that Celtic and Rangers fans have, or the dickhead next door feels when he buys a Merc. It's really nothing to do with football. Look around Europe, part-time football clubs don't schlep all over the country.

And in any word association test, not many people are going to attach the word "prestige" to Albion Rovers...

[GNU_Linux]

The SPFL isn't going to regionalize so it's pipedream stuff. The only change I could forsee is the divisions increasing in size thus contracting from 4 divisions to 3. Even that I don't see happening anytime soon.

[mcruic]

I'm sure there was prestige attached to those clubs who were senior in the East of Scotland League also, but the juniors have come in and shat all over that prestige.  Only 2 senior clubs were able to finish in the top half of the three 13-team conferences.  The top 5 in each of the 3 leagues had been junior the year before.  Prestige means nothing.

[mcruic]

1 minute ago, GNU_Linux said:

The SPFL isn't going to regionalize so it's pipedream stuff. The only change I could forsee is the divisions increasing in size thus contracting from 4 divisions to 3. Even that I don't see happening anytime soon.

But if there is no discussion of it, it definitely won't happen.  Just a few years ago, a promotion play-off to the SPFL was pipedream stuff as well - now it's reality.

[Jason King]

12 minutes ago, mcruic said:

I'm sure there was prestige attached to those clubs who were senior in the East of Scotland League also, but the juniors have come in and shat all over that prestige.  Only 2 senior clubs were able to finish in the top half of the three 13-team conferences.  The top 5 in each of the 3 leagues had been junior the year before.  Prestige means nothing.

You might want to use a dictionary to see what prestige actually means.

[Jason King]

21 minutes ago, GordonS said:

 

And in any word association test, not many people are going to attach the word "prestige" to Albion Rovers...

And in any reality if you dont think that Albion Rovers are a more prestigious club than the likes of Linlithgow or Auchinleck then you are living in cloud cuckoo land.