International Football: A Growing Irrelevance?

[forameus]

Now this thought for a thread has not aged well.  I'll caveat what I'm about to say by saying that I intended to post this prior to us kicking off in Kazahkstan, so please try and forget that bit happened (ha) so it doesn't colour the discussion.  

So International Football.  I think it's brilliant.  I knew we're usually shite, but there's something a lot different about it than the usual drudgery of supporting Partick Thistle.  I expect a lot of people will feel that way.  It's not "better" than club football, but it's a nice alternative to have, and I've never really understood the hate it gets.  Although to be fair, that's usually from mynancouldscorethat's who can't see beyond the Prem, innit.

But unfortunately, the attitude that international football is rubbish seems to be moving from the realms of angry wee men on the internet to more general circles, and perhaps even to the players themselves.  The call-offs we've had for this window probably wouldn't have changed the terrible performance an awful lot (although I expect Robertson/Tierney/Douglas might have at least pretended to be a competent defender for their goals) but it obviously would have been better to have a stronger squad available.

Injuries obviously happen, and probably the majority of call-offs are genuine, but there seems to be a few that essentially boil down to - on the surface at least - clubs leaning on players and either leading them to "decide" they shouldn't play, or just flat out telling them.  This doesn't necessarily seem to be a purely Scottish problem.  I can't speak for many other nations, or in much detail about England, but they do seem to get plenty of tenuous drop-outs too.  Fortunately for them, they're not exactly struggling to put together a squad, unlike us.

So is international football essentially dying a death on these shores?  Has club football become far too powerful, to the point that its essentially strangling the international side?  Do players really care anymore?  

[Desp]

3 minutes ago, forameus said:

So is international football essentially dying a death on these shores?  A winning/successful side will always provide life to the International teams.  See England, Wales & N. Ireland for recent examples of this.

 

Has club football become far too powerful, to the point that its essentially strangling the international side?  Perhaps.  What you'll find with Scotland, is because we've got so pish for so long, the big clubs in England can dictate when and where their plays can turn up for us.  Can you imagine Wales letting Ramsey or Bale sit out a European qualifier because of the pitch?  Ultimately though, it's the players first and foremost who have to have the desire to play for their country.  It doesn't look like we have that, certainly compared to the three other nations in the UK.

 

Do players really care anymore?  See above.  It appears the players who are good enough for the top level can't really be arsed with Scotland, leaving it to players who simply aren't good enough to show a bit of passion while singing the anthem, only for them to be found out during the game.  

 

[vikingTON]

'Growing'?

[NotThePars]

Before last summer I would've agreed that it was becoming irrelevant but then I think of the pure glee I felt when Mandzukic fired that second one in. My (English) da didn't speak to me for a week after.

[nsr]

International football is ceasing to be relevant because national sides are finding ways to effectively "sign" foreign players through whatever legal means are available.

[Benjamin_Nevis]

It's fucking shite. I don't think I'd watch the rest of Scotland's campaign if it was played outside my living room window. It's decades now of utter mismanagement by the SFA, appointing "old boys" every time the previous loser is retained just long enough to leave the next boring b*****d too little time to prepare for the next campaign's inevitable failure. 

We are utterly awful to watch, home or away. Fans in their 40s will remember when we had decent players in the late 70s and into the 80s. Fans born from about 1990 onwards have only seen shite, turgid football under a series of utterly uninspiring managers. I don't blame anyone under the age of 30 who'd rather watch club football than internationals. I don't blame anyone over the age of 30 either come to think of it. Going from watching the likes of Dalgleish, Hansen, Souness, Mo Johnston etc etc to watching absolute dross like McLeish's line up against the Kazakhs would be enough to turn anyone away from football itself, let alone internationals. 

We're bang average, verging on shite but still clinging on to delusions that we should be regularly qualifying for major tournaments. Our level now is basically where Wales were about 15 years ago. 

[Jason King]

Clubs have the power now, once the "Champions" league makes its move to weekend fixtures in the next TV deal that's the end of international football as any sort of concern for the average football fan.

[Guest]

This is a difficult one, from a personal perspective this will be the first campaign in over 20 years that myself and a group of my friends haven't renewed out SSC membership. This was for a variety of reasons ranging from the days of the scheduled matches to kick off times to the increase in cost, I'd also add that the "season ticket" idea also put us off, as it was becoming impossible to get North Stand tickets together unless you were all willing to fork out £200 + per person up front and we just weren't in a position to do this.

There's also no doubt that we used the Scotland matches as a reason for a "get together" as we all don't see each other that much nowadays, however we decided to use the Scotland matchday money to go on lads weekends to Eastern Europe instead (mostly Poland) and I can honestly say that it was a fantastic decision.

I'm sure lots of fans are thinking along the same lines as ourselves, however I'm still a Scotland supporter and always will be, even if I'm not attending the matches as regularly as I used to, but I just feel that he whole experience leaves a bad taste nowadays from certain players not caring, to SFA incompetence and arrogance, to the high cost, through to the terrible and extremely inconvenient kick off times and ultimately the depression that comes with following Scotland..............

[Kejan]

Jupe sums it up perfectly, we are what Wales were 15-25 years ago.

Fear it'll just keep getting worse e.g last night. Mind Kazakhstan have won 4 competitive games in 10 years - two against Andorra. It was bad enough going to the likes of Lithuania, Georgia and stinking the place out with a 1-0 defeat ; but getting utterly humiliated and humped last night in ex-Soviet states probably is the future.

There's a few decent players in there, and with the right set up from the board to management, you could possibly get a decently-average side who could possibly qualify for tournaments, but years of decline within the fuds at the SFA will get us utterly nowhere.  Look at that absolute disaster of trying to get Michael O'Neill - threw everything at getting him, and he probably quite rightfully rubbered it , and the SFA have no alternative lined up - or worrying enough their second choice is McLeish.

Kazakhstan and fair dues to them, they deserved their win ; but watch Russia turn up there on Sunday and turn them over 0-3. That result yesterday is utterly honking and a most likely a glance of what the future entails, getting absolutely panned and struggling to come 4th in qualifying groups.

I love international football, although maybe we should have just wound the whole thing up after we shat the bed in September 2014.

[eez-eh]

3 hours ago, forameus said:

But unfortunately, the attitude that international football is rubbish seems to be moving from the realms of angry wee men on the internet to more general circles, and perhaps even to the players themselves.

 

2 hours ago, virginton said:

'Growing'?

 

[Moonglum25]

Would never miss an international in the 70's. Can remember some great nights like beating the Czechs to go to WC in Germany and drawing 1-1 with West Germany.   Since then there has been a decline and now I would not cross the road to see the current team.

For a manager to state " It's not over till it's over" after a defeat like that says it all.  If he cannot see that it is indeed all over for him then god help us. He should have immediately tendered his resignation.

[fuzzydunlop]

Agree with so many comments above.

 

International football to me is like that ex you keep going back to…you keep telling yourself to leave it alone as it will only lead to trouble, yet back you go and have to deal with the next morning despair...and then try and ignore it for as long as you can until inevitably you get dragged back in.  I've lost count of the times I've thought.."thast it not interested any more" then I read about some new youngster who is the next Dalglish and my expectations and hopes are raised.

 

I live in England now and these c*nts down here are getting things together in a big way on the international set up.  Worringly,  it seems like they’ve finally learned from mistakes and problems in the past and with Southgate, love him or loathe him, he seems generally driven to change the state of English International football.  Of course he's awlays going to be a bad result away from the tabloids hounding him out but there seems a calm reassurance with him that i haven't seen with an England manager since Bobby Robson.  

I heard an interview with the England Under 17 manager this week and he heaped a lot of emphasis on their St Georges facility helping with this improvement for the youngsters and the first team.    I doubt we’ve got the funds for anything like that but my point is things need to change, and  looked at from a new angle.   F*ck knows if this is possible but surely someone somewhere must be thinking we need a change…otherwise we are going to find ourselves cast further adrift. ..and yes the further salt int he wound is Wales and Northern Ireland..smaller nations than ours are both streets ahead. 

 

I guess my point is England, with Southgate, have got a young eager manager who is bringing fresh ideas and putting the time and effort into the national side.  McLeish I feel is old school…and the SFA attitude is old school. We should be looking for best person for the job not someone who fits the normal stereotype(someone with a Scotland international cap).

I just fear certain people are just too stubborn to change.

[Jambomo]

I think we are a bit fed up of it here because we never seem to make the most of the chances or players we have and the SFA have never seemed to give much of a f**k beyond making sure they and their friends are ok and well represented.

 

I actually think that it translates down to England as well, when they were rubbish they didn’t care about internationals and could be heard to loudly say how much of a f**k they didn’t give, when you see comments after a game. Think that’s changing now because Southgate is a decent guy and doing well(-ish).

 

I think abroad is a different story though, I think they still massively care about internationals and are really still behind the national teams. I don’t think our growing attitude to internationals is the same elsewhere.

 

[Estragon]

I think it was Charlie Mulgrew who said recently in an interview that he'd never had a club manager who wasn't pressurising him, to some degree or another, to pull out of the Scotland squad.

I don't think this is a recent thing,  but another victim of the increasingly corporate nature of top level football.

[forameus]

1 hour ago, fuzzydunlop said:

Agree with so many comments above.

 

International football to me is like that ex you keep going back to…you keep telling yourself to leave it alone as it will only lead to trouble, yet back you go and have to deal with the next morning despair...and then try and ignore it for as long as you can until inevitably you get dragged back in.  I've lost count of the times I've thought.."thast it not interested any more" then I read about some new youngster who is the next Dalglish and my expectations and hopes are raised.

 

I live in England now and these c*nts down here are getting things together in a big way on the international set up.  Worringly,  it seems like they’ve finally learned from mistakes and problems in the past and with Southgate, love him or loathe him, he seems generally driven to change the state of English International football.  Of course he's awlays going to be a bad result away from the tabloids hounding him out but there seems a calm reassurance with him that i haven't seen with an England manager since Bobby Robson.  

I heard an interview with the England Under 17 manager this week and he heaped a lot of emphasis on their St Georges facility helping with this improvement for the youngsters and the first team.    I doubt we’ve got the funds for anything like that but my point is things need to change, and  looked at from a new angle.   F*ck knows if this is possible but surely someone somewhere must be thinking we need a change…otherwise we are going to find ourselves cast further adrift. ..and yes the further salt int he wound is Wales and Northern Ireland..smaller nations than ours are both streets ahead. 

 

I guess my point is England, with Southgate, have got a young eager manager who is bringing fresh ideas and putting the time and effort into the national side.  McLeish I feel is old school…and the SFA attitude is old school. We should be looking for best person for the job not someone who fits the normal stereotype(someone with a Scotland international cap).

I just fear certain people are just too stubborn to change.

To be fair with England though, they're just one defeat away from the toys getting well and truly flung.  A lot won't see their World Cup journey as that, but more as a deserved birthright, particularly with following it up with the Nations League.  You already see Southgate's squad selections being criticised, despite being well within his rights to turn around and go "Do you remember how we usually play in qualifying?"

But they are doing things far better than us.  At least Wales look largely shit (although with great potential) and Northern Ireland seem to be reverting to type, and are massively, MASSIVELY unlikely to qualify from their group, or through the Nations League.

1 hour ago, Jambomo said:

I think abroad is a different story though, I think they still massively care about internationals and are really still behind the national teams. I don’t think our growing attitude to internationals is the same elsewhere.

This is a good point.  I tried to frame what I was saying from a UK perspective, because I think International football is seen far differently elsewhere.  It's probably all down to the Premier League bubble, as even though I imagine the likes of Barcelona and Real Madrid would be choking for a European Super League, I'm sure they would also like to get back to riding every national side again in a Spain shirt.

At least if we continue to plumb the depths of showing how much more important a Wednesday night in English League Two is to our players than a crucial qualifier, we can count on most of the rest of the world to show that it actually matters.

1 hour ago, Estragon said:

I think it was Charlie Mulgrew who said recently in an interview that he'd never had a club manager who wasn't pressurising him, to some degree or another, to pull out of the Scotland squad.

I don't think this is a recent thing,  but another victim of the increasingly corporate nature of top level football.

And this.  I would be absolutely amazed if the majority of tenuous call-offs are down to the player.  At the end of the day, your club pays your wages, and I expect even if you want to play for your country there will be certain pressures placed on you, either subtly or overtly.  Can you really blame the players in that situation?  From a Scotland perspective, aye, but realistically it just isn't worth it anymore.  Which is pretty shit.

[HibeeJibee]

I don't sense it's happening across the continent or globe. If anything the opposite.

In the last couple of years I think there has been clear signs of growing apathy here. You see that manifested in much poorer crowds, lack of excitement, plus it certainly feels like a lower level of interest when an international break comes along. I suspect it's a result of not having qualified for 22 years - and not having made a playoff for 14 years - with a groundhog day-esque run of disappointments and debacles. More fans - and now perhaps players - have become deadened or at least more indifferent to it.

[Monkey Tennis]

I love international football, and the other night doesn't change that.

It has much more value, as far as I'm concerned, than the self serving repetitive Champions' League.  The hideous way that club football at the top level has been allowed to be distorted in recent decades has elevated the importance of what national sides do, in my eyes.

Its appeal is in decline here currently, as a response to repeated failure.  World Cups remain huge global affairs though and I'm grateful that that's the case.

It's the only 'big' football that interests me.

[Guest DAVIDB69]

I think it’s becoming an irrelevance in Scotland Celtic players allowed to withdraw from the Peru , Mexico last summer for example, but it ties in with multiple European qualifiers so club standing is so low for that as well.

 

Going back over 40 years the trip to Argentina pre World Cup if folks had withdrawn , they would not have been in the squad again

 

Watch the spate of mainly Celtic withdrawals from the games in June as well. Others have said that being help to ransom over players by the likes of Bournemouth and Sheffield Wednesday is awful, but they do it because they can and because we are the lowest standing and least relevant of the five British isles nations.

 

Say England had travelled to Kazakhstan with say Wilson of Bournemouth and they tried the same stunt as with Fraser , Wilson would not have been seen again in the squad .

 

The players can pick and choose their games and they know this, strachan admitted he allowed players to do this, mcleish has had 46 players in a year, which is absolutely shocking .

 

We need to get tougher like Northern Ireland , what they did with lafferty and made him miss the next club club game , they you might suddenly see a difference .

 

If an English side reaches the champions league final, they will all be the nations league the following week , they won’t be any tiredness there .

 

Until we change some of the above and get tougher nothing will change , although nothing will change as the sfa don’t want to upset Celtic mainly

 

 

 

 

 

[suitsuit]

I think Scotland just need to qualify for a tournament again and the enthusiasm and relevance will come back. 

Even after that horror show on Thursday I'm still confident of beating Finland in the playoffs and then who knows.

[Guest DAVIDB69]

I think Scotland just need to qualify for a tournament again and the enthusiasm and relevance will come back. 
Even after that horror show on Thursday I'm still confident of beating Finland in the playoffs and then who knows.

Maybe but I am not sure we would beat Serbia though, we are usually ok and beating those ranked below us at home but usually not much beyond that .