Coronavirus (COVID-19)

[The Moonster]

I've honestly lost count of the number of times I've said "who the f**k is this?" when some Tory MP/Minister is giving an update or an interview. Genuinely never heard of half of these c***s and you see Johnson about 3 times a month, during a fucking pandemic.

Nicola Sturgeon will deserve criticism at the end of this but I honestly cannot fathom why anyone coming out of this would not want Scotland to manage its own affairs. Our leader is in a different league, our parliament functions far better than theirs does, and it's more diverse due to the election process. It could not be clearer how different Scotland is politically to the rest of the UK.

 

[101]

Just now, The Moonster said:

I've honestly lost count of the number of times I've said "who the f**k is this?" when some Tory MP/Minister is giving an update or an interview. Genuinely never heard of half of these c***s and you see Johnson about 3 times a month, during a fucking pandemic.

Nicola Sturgeon will deserve criticism at the end of this but I honestly cannot fathom why anyone coming out of this would not want Scotland to manage its own affairs. Our leader is in a different league, our parliament functions far better than theirs does, and it's more diverse due to the election process. It could not be clearer how different Scotland is politically to the rest of the UK.

 

I would love to know what Boris thinks of himself, does he lack the self awareness to think everyone thinks he's doing a good job and he doesn't need to appear more than once a fortnight at the max or does he really not care. The First Minister has been doing a briefing 6 days a week for as long as this has been going on, I can see how some of the decisions can be criticized but in terms of being open and transparent she is doing well. Also pisses me off that the UK briefing has never had a Northern Irish publication asking questions as far as I know and almost never has regional news asking questions.

[Paco]

On this forum we were even saying that how come our scientists' advice seems to be different from that of almost every other country. Turns out our scientists were treating it as flu. The govt (including scot gov) should have been looking around and noticing why every other country was reacting differently to us and drawing conclusions & making decisions based on that. 

 

 

I always think back to what was even at the time an exceptionally odd news conference with Johnson, Whitty and Vallance smugly acting like our science was somehow better than absolutely everybody else’s. March 5th having looked it up - two days after Johnson said he was still shaking hands with everyone on the Covid wards. Whitty/Vallance acted like it was all under control. Almost chuckling at the rest of the world (“there’s been a change of advice in Italy, I believe, but basically we’re saying wash your hands” is a direct quote from Johnson) and it was absolutely nothing to worry about.

 

Seven days later it was the ‘worst public health crisis in a generation’ and Johnson came out and said ‘many’ families were going to lose loved ones before their time. There’s a lot of blame game there but a week between absolutely nothing to worry about and the PM telling everyone to prepare for their relatives to die.

 

Extraordinary really. Even more extraordinary is people who don’t think the government, or indeed ‘The Science’, can be blamed in any way. It’s there in black and white.

 

[Todd_is_God]

16 minutes ago, madwullie said:

Tbh then it's your responsibly to get better scientists, a broader view. 

The blame the science shtick annoys me because leaders are elected to lead, to take responsibility for their actions and those under them. 

On this forum we were even saying that how come our scientists' advice seems to be different from that of almost every other country. Turns out our scientists were treating it as flu. The govt (including scot gov) should have been looking around and noticing why every other country was reacting differently to us and drawing conclusions & making decisions based on that. 

They clearly had a broader view. As you say it was clear their opinion differed from scientists elsewhere. It's easy to look back and say that it's obvious the UK scientists were wrong, but at the same time there is no point having a UK based team of scientists if you dismiss their opinion on the basis it differs from elsewhere.

There is undoubtably an arrogance that British science is better than all other science. We still hear this during the briefings even now.

What Covid-19 has highlighted beyond any doubt is that this is certainly not the case. The overall performance of our scientists, their modelling and predictions, has been shocking throughout. This, along with why UK took the wrong decisions at every step, needs reviewed once the dust settles.

[Alert Mongoose]

On 22/01/2020 at 05:52, ICTChris said:

Have any P&Bers ever been part of a worldwide pandemic?

Yes.

[The Moonster]

16 minutes ago, 101 said:

I would love to know what Boris thinks of himself, does he lack the self awareness to think everyone thinks he's doing a good job and he doesn't need to appear more than once a fortnight at the max or does he really not care. The First Minister has been doing a briefing 6 days a week for as long as this has been going on, I can see how some of the decisions can be criticized but in terms of being open and transparent she is doing well. Also pisses me off that the UK briefing has never had a Northern Irish publication asking questions as far as I know and almost never has regional news asking questions.

These c***s live in their own wee bubble. A pat on the back from a Tory peer is all they need to think they're doing a good job, nothing else is relevant. If you had any sort of empathy as leader of a country or felt any responsibility for the families and friends of people who have died in the last 3 months you would absolutely be on TV every day being visible and accountable. Sturgeon is, the Tories seem to have a rota on the go for who is het. There isn't a Tory MP anywhere in the country that has shown any sort of empathy or taken responsibility, in fact they trot the line "no one could've foreseen this" and as of yesterday have started blaming the scientists to absolve themselves and their conscience of any blame. 

[HeartsOfficialMoaner]

SAGE might have shown the government a few different scenarios/options 1 - 5. Riskiest too safest.

The government could then choose something that the government think is best. They pick the wrong one they can say they are following advice of scientists.

[vikingTON]

30 minutes ago, Todd_is_God said:

They clearly had a broader view. As you say it was clear their opinion differed from scientists elsewhere. It's easy to look back and say that it's obvious the UK scientists were wrong, but at the same time there is no point having a UK based team of scientists if you dismiss their opinion on the basis it differs from elsewhere.

There is undoubtably an arrogance that British science is better than all other science. We still hear this during the briefings even now.

What Covid-19 has highlighted beyond any doubt is that this is certainly not the case. The overall performance of our scientists, their modelling and predictions, has been shocking throughout. This, along with why UK took the wrong decisions at every step, needs reviewed once the dust settles.

There's no such thing as British Science that said one thing and Foreign Science that said something else. The government has of course peddled this apersonal Based on The Science bullshit from the start but it's not a credible basis for understanding what went wrong. There were and are as many diverging views on what to do within the UK scientific community as the rest of the world.

The real issue is that the London and Edinburgh governments have a shared culture of giving undue weight to certain types of scientific advice over others. This is evident in their general and long-standing obsession with nudge-based behavioural policies over actual, enforceable orders to the public, as well as deference to the insider, don't rock the boat types who get the jobs of chief medical officer or senior health advisor in the first place. It's no surprise that the scientists leading the official government health response are overwhelmingly white, old and male. 

Where Scotland differs from the UK is that Sturgeon was a long-serving health minister, so has both experience of the task at hand but also almost certainly much closer relationships to the chief scientific advisors than Johnson. Whitty and Valance will be cast aside as the fall guys and they have only themselves to blame for acting as the gormless front men for their government in the first place 

Edited June 9, 2020 by vikingTON

[Gaz]

Helen Whately is on a whole other level of incompetence.

[WhiteRoseKillie]

56 minutes ago, madwullie said:

Tbh then it's your responsibly to get better scientists, a broader view. 

The blame the science shtick annoys me because leaders are elected to lead, to take responsibility for their actions and those under them. 

On this forum we were even saying that how come our scientists' advice seems to be different from that of almost every other country. Turns out our scientists were treating it as flu. The govt (including scot gov) should have been looking around and noticing why every other country was reacting differently to us and drawing conclusions & making decisions based on that. 

From the very beginning of this crisis, and certainly from the first of the daily briefings, the one unchanging mantra has been, "we are following the science". It really hasn't been hard to guess who the fall guys are going to be.

32 minutes ago, Paco said:

 

I always think back to what was even at the time an exceptionally odd news conference with Johnson, Whitty and Vallance smugly acting like our science was somehow better than absolutely everybody else’s. March 5th having looked it up - two days after Johnson said he was still shaking hands with everyone on the Covid wards. Whitty/Vallance acted like it was all under control. Almost chuckling at the rest of the world (“there’s been a change of advice in Italy, I believe, but basically we’re saying wash your hands” is a direct quote from Johnson) and it was absolutely nothing to worry about.

 

Seven days later it was the ‘worst public health crisis in a generation’ and Johnson came out and said ‘many’ families were going to lose loved ones before their time. There’s a lot of blame game there but a week between absolutely nothing to worry about and the PM telling everyone to prepare for their relatives to die.

 

Extraordinary really. Even more extraordinary is people who don’t think the government, or indeed ‘The Science’, can be blamed in any way. It’s there in black and white.

 

Whitty and Vallance struck me from Day One as well chuffed to get themselves on telly and bask in Johnson's reflected glory. As stated above, that didn't last, and they've looked more and more uncomfortable in their rarer and rarer appearances. And we have to suffer a Tory peer being presented as the head of the Track & Trace system, while standing behind a massive NHS Logo. We're expected to believe she has anything to do with the NHS other than highlighting possible areas for privatisation.

29 minutes ago, Todd_is_God said:

They clearly had a broader view. As you say it was clear their opinion differed from scientists elsewhere. It's easy to look back and say that it's obvious the UK scientists were wrong, but at the same time there is no point having a UK based team of scientists if you dismiss their opinion on the basis it differs from elsewhere.

There is undoubtably an arrogance that British science is better than all other science. We still hear this during the briefings even now.

What Covid-19 has highlighted beyond any doubt is that this is certainly not the case. The overall performance of our scientists, their modelling and predictions, has been shocking throughout. This, along with why UK took the wrong decisions at every step, needs reviewed once the dust settles.

It's perfectly possible that the UK scientiusts agreed with the general consensus, but with (at least) Cummings and (probably) other SPADs sitting on a committee supposedly giving purely scientific advice, they were never going to be allowed to go against whatever the Barnard Castle Goblin decided was the way forward.

[vikingTON]

33 minutes ago, WhiteRoseKillie said:

It's perfectly possible that the UK scientiusts agreed with the general consensus, but with (at least) Cummings and (probably) other SPADs sitting on a committee supposedly giving purely scientific advice, they were never going to be allowed to go against whatever the Barnard Castle Goblin decided was the way forward.

Then the onus is on them to resign from said committees and use their public standing to hold the government to account. How many of them have chosen to do so at the cost of their cosy insider position and a wee honour or two that would be thrown their way by the establishment?

[WhiteRoseKillie]

Just now, virginton said:

Then the onus is on them to resign from said committees and use their public standing to hold the government to account. How many of them have chosen to do so at the cost of their cosy insider position and a wee honour or two that would be thrown their way by the establishment?

None, as far as I'm aware.

Did you have a point, at all, caller?

 

[bendan]

2 hours ago, JTS98 said:

China predictably lashing out everywhere and anywhere to divert attention from its performance over covid-19. Their anti-Australian rhetoric in the last few days has been pretty striking and the maritime disputes with SEA neighbours are worth keeping an eye on.

The problem China has is that its political system is riddled with incompetence and corruption at local and national level. Very easy to imagine a scenario here where China sleepwalks its way into trouble, especially as it is currently so over-stretched. Arguing with America, arguing with the WHO, arguing with Australia, arguing with India, arguing with Vietnam, arguing with Malaysia, arguing with Indonesia, trouble in Hong Kong, fresh from trying (again) to intervene in Taiwanese politics.

Interesting times.

https://www.malaymail.com/news/malaysia/2020/06/09/ft-beijing-turning-to-aggression-in-south-china-sea-to-deflect-covid-19-bla/1873708

Apart from advising students not to go to Australia because of alleged racist incidents, what other 'anti Australian' rhetoric has there been in the last few days?

[Donathan]

Helen Whately is on a whole other level of incompetence.

Wid.

[Doctor Manhattan]

3 minutes ago, Donathan said:

Wid.

 

 

He said "incompetence", not "incontinence".

[Venti]

Golfers.

Wish I could launch them all in the sea.

Went up to the shop & you'd think there was a fucking PGA Tour happening at Gourock golf course.

[sjc]

If there's a 2nd/3rd/4th wave, what exactly has been gained/learnt from the lockdown? 

[vikingTON]

27 minutes ago, WhiteRoseKillie said:

None, as far as I'm aware.

Did you have a point, at all, caller?

 

Then it doesn't matter if you 'agreed with the general consensus' elsewhere if you did absolutely nothing of consequence to change the outcome in the UK while holding a position of public authority and accountability.

A straightforward enough logical sequence for most but I don't mind walking you through it on this occasion.

[Scotty Tunbridge]

If there's a 2nd/3rd/4th wave, what exactly has been gained/learnt from the lockdown? 

That there is no money left for a second furlough.

[welshbairn]

3 minutes ago, sjc said:

If there's a 2nd/3rd/4th wave, what exactly has been gained/learnt from the lockdown? 

That in the most part people do what they're told, and it is possible to control the infection rate. And any delay in implementation can be very costly.