Coronavirus (COVID-19)

[Musketeer Gripweed]

19 minutes ago, Skyline Drifter said:

Not sure what your point is here? Nor what it's relevance to the issue of schools being open "as normal" as to football crowds being allowed? Are you suggesting cinemas will be opening as normal with no social distancing?

You don't understand that the age demographic a a Disney movie would be a lot younger than at an 18 certificate horror movie? It's ok for schools but not outdoor sports stadiums though? 

Edited June 23, 2020 by Musketeer Gripweed

[Skyline Drifter]

 

2 minutes ago, Gaz said:

You're wrong here, by the way. This changes how much teachers will be in school in August too.

Does it? As a matter of interest how? Is it because they may now work Fridays and weren't going to before?

As I understand my own kids school, as per the information issued only this morning, the class sizes were to be halved and half the kids were to be in Mondays and Tuesdays and the other half Wednesdays and Thursdays with home learning the other days. The teachers would be in all four days. However Fridays were still to be finalised and it was looking unlikely to be in school learning.

[stumigoo]

Nothing announced today has changed anything for the staff.

It absolutely has.

[Gaz]

3 minutes ago, Skyline Drifter said:

 

Does it? As a matter of interest how? Is it because they may now work Fridays and weren't going to before?

As I understand my own kids school, as per the information issued only this morning, the class sizes were to be halved and half the kids were to be in Mondays and Tuesdays and the other half Wednesdays and Thursdays with home learning the other days. The teachers would be in all four days. However Fridays were still to be finalised and it was looking unlikely to be in school learning.

Our local authority's plans for the blended model had teachers being in school for most of the week but also working from home part of the week. A large part of this was down to logistics - under the blended model, we were to have a maximum of ten pupils in a class spread out over three times as many rooms as they would have normally required.

This meant that when teachers had non-contact time, being able to sit in our rooms to plan / mark wasn't going to be feasible as our room would be being used. Given that we weren't going to be allowed to congregate in staff rooms, and our terms and conditions explicitly allow us to carry out certain aspects of our job remotely, our staff were to be expected to be working from home part of the week.

This new plan changes that, we're now going to be in as normal.

EDIT: Even if this wasn't the case, surely your own acknowledgement that teachers will now be in on Friday (whereas before they weren't) defeats your own argument that nothing has changed for teachers?

Edited June 23, 2020 by Gaz

[Skyline Drifter]

1 minute ago, Musketeer Gripweed said:

You don't understand that the age demographic a a Disney movie would be a lot younger than at an 18 certificate horror movie? It's ok for schools but not football stadiums though? 

Well duh, obviously I appreciate that the attendance at a Disney movie will be younger than at a slasher one. We were not discussing cinemas though. The discussion was whether schools being back full time in August meant football crowds would be.

If your point is that football crowds should be allowed because cinema attendance is I agree with you. I wasn't saying football crowds shouldn't be allowed, just that schools going back with the vast majority of attendees being in the very lowest risk group is not terribly relevant to crowds at football. VT thinks it is, Moonster and Dundee Hibernian think it is.

[Todd_is_God]

12 minutes ago, Skyline Drifter said:

I agree. I never said football stadiums couldn't open. I addressed Moonster's comment that schools going back meant there was no reason football crowds couldn't. I don't think schools going back remotely links to football crowds. Cinemas I agree is a better example. Although people are far less likely to shout and scream and project breath droplets etc at a cinema I guess.

True. Though maybe masks could be worn to mitigate?

[Monkey Tennis]

4 hours ago, AyrshireTon said:

The courses are still changing. We got the update to N5 Maths emailed earlier in the week. 

Agree about the difficulty of Int 2 etc. N5 is a hybrid of SG (Credit), Int 2 and a couple of bits of old Higher added in. With it being the only examinable option on the table for S4 pupils, it's little wonder that every year one third of sitting candidates fail it.

Standard Grade represented an ideal course for an awful lot of kids, in a way that none of its replacements have managed.

[Skyline Drifter]

2 minutes ago, Gaz said:

Our local authority's plans for the blended model had teachers being in school for most of the week but also working from home part of the week. A large part of this was down to logistics - under the blended model, we were to have a maximum of ten pupils in a class spread out over three times as many rooms as they would have normally required.

This meant that when teachers had non-contact time, being able to sit in our rooms to plan / mark wasn't going to be feasible as our room would be being used. Given that we weren't going to be allowed to congregate in staff rooms, and our terms and conditions explicitly allow us to carry out certain aspects of our job remotely, our staff were to be expected to be working from home part of the week.

This new plan changes that, we're now going to be in as normal.

Fair enough then, thanks. I take the point. Janitors, cleaners and school meals staff presumably would have been in for their normal duties though?

Never the less, the point about the risk in a crowd of children being far lower than in the equivalent sized crowd of football fans remains.

[Gaz]

Just now, Skyline Drifter said:

Fair enough then, thanks. I take the point. Janitors, cleaners and school meals staff presumably would have been in for their normal duties though?

Never the less, the point about the risk in a crowd of children being far lower than in the equivalent sized crowd of football fans remains.

Less pupils meant less numbers of cleaners, cooks, janitors, admin staff required each day.

[Steven W]

9 minutes ago, SJP79 said:

There seems to be a second wave coming in South Korea and Israel, plus out breaks in Austrailia, Portugal and Spain. 

I think a second wave will happen here, especially with tourism starting again, fans in stadiums looks doubtful unless there in a huge reduction in numbers. 

I tend to think a 'second wave' is inevitable really. Or more accurately multiple flare ups, with localised lockdowns.

The way we've lived for the past three months is entirely unsustainable, so managed localised flare ups will be the way to go when they occur.

I can't imagine (I'm often wrong though!) a country going into a second full scale country wide lockdown. Time will tell 

[Skyline Drifter]

1 minute ago, Gaz said:

Less pupils meant less numbers of cleaners, cooks, janitors, admin staff required each day.

Acknowledged, potentially. Not in the case of our school though. Not sure about cleaners but our school only has one janitor and one school meal person (she doesn't cook, the meals come in from outside, but I assume she plates up). Two admin staff usually right enough.

It sounds like you are talking more about secondary school to be fair? I assume that teachers having free time to plan and mark is not something so likely at primary school? To be honest, I'm guilty of basing all my comments round a primary here. I acknowledge the staffing will be very different at a secondary.

[super_carson]

2 minutes ago, Skyline Drifter said:

 

It sounds like you are talking more about secondary school to be fair? I assume that teachers having free time to plan and mark is not something so likely at primary school? To be honest, I'm guilty of basing all my comments round a primary here. I acknowledge the staffing will be very different at a secondary.

Can only speak for Edinburgh, but the plan for Primary schools would have been pupils in Mon-Thurs, and Fridays for online content as well as the usual planning/marking/prep time.  

[Monkey Tennis]

3 hours ago, stumigoo said:

 

It does change things for schools. The assumption was blended to begin with and then phased back to normality, now it is the reverse.

 

As I mentioned earlier, it just means a shift in focus for staff and especially senior staff with regards to timetabling, the physical layout of the buildings and the general plans for opening in August and what needs to be put back in place. Ideally this would have been announced maybe last week, just to allow pre-summer planning for the two different scenarios.

I feel sorry for staff who were charged with preparing timetables for this 'blended' nonsense.

It's been clear for a good few days where this was heading though.  I've spent them advising colleagues not to bust a gut on such a silly model, because a full return was very much on the cards.

I'm glad it's happening and I think the profession needs to be seen to be embracing it.

[superbigal]

An update on the shambolic behaviour of the BDA currently is kind of exposed by a resignation of one of their more outspoken members.  Not especially Covid related but interesting a this top level .

Dear Colleagues,

It is with a heavy heart that I must announce I have resigned as a BDA PEC Board Director with immediate effect.

My gratitude for your support and my determination to make a positive difference has never waivered. Dentistry has never been just a job to me.

Unfortunately there has been a chronic, corrosive and perhaps dysfunctional, toxic or manipulative culture that has made my remaining in post untenable. I am a reasonably stoic fellow but for some time I have wondered ‘is it me?’

I was recently describing my observations confidentially and I was shown the signs of ‘institutionalised gaslighting’ and suddenly a lot of seemingly separate issues, were exposed more clearly.

I would now genuinely fear for a new Board member who may be at all vulnerable in such an unhealthy corrosive culture, that now seems to dominate PEC.

Currently I appear to be the victim of an internal BDA PEC campaign to discredit myself wrt Conflicts of Interests in my many innovative and progressive approaches for Dentistry, just before there are internal PEC elections for potentially a new PEC Chair and new Chair of the EEDT Committee, who normally wield a lot of power and influence in how PEC operates and upon the rest of the PEC Board. This is one area where our BDA members cannot vote or directly influence these leadership positions democratically.

The way I have been treated, disadvantaged unfairly, had minor matters catastrophised and even presented in a misleading or deliberately misleading way to other PEC members, has simply been unacceptable and unfair IMHO. A legal report was even commissioned without my agreement or input, where the content is incomplete, inaccurate, misleading or otherwise significantly compromised and thus not valid in many of its statements of facts, opinions, concerns or conclusions. It is so bad that when I was only given sight of this on Friday lunchtime for an online PEC meeting this Monday evening, which even in that unacceptably short timeframe, it is now already the subject of a formal complaint to the Solicitor and involving of the SRA too.

At 4.47pm this Monday evening, having previously asked to have sight of the ‘additional’ information PEC forwarded to inform Friday’s Legal report, I have only now received a huge bundle of 8 attachments with maybe 3 hrs notice pre-meeting and NO mention of my request to delay given, the late notice etc.

One of the attached papers even says this,

“A PEC member reports Tony to the Ethics and Professional Conduct Committee for behaviour likely to be ‘prejudicial to the interests of the Association.’ The EPCC may ultimately withdraw membership from Tony, hence removing him from the PEC.”

I hope you can come to realise that my whistleblowing like this is not only justified, but essential in my public duty, as I feel there is no prospect of being treated fairly internally and this is the only way to be fully open and transparent about the deep concerns about PEC, for the greater good overall. This really has not been easy for me as someone who champions and cares about the BDA and our Profession.

I want to emphasise this in no way reflects upon the great BDA frontline staff who have been exceptional in supporting members and others in this unprecedented crisis; The GDPC who have under their leadership been representing members, tackling 4 UK Country negotiations and even expanding their Private input significantly, to help all; The many other Committees, Country Councils and of course our Young Dentists Committee who represent the future of our great and often unappreciated Profession.

The BDA is by members, for members and I encourage you all to get involved, ask questions, make your feelings clear and help the BDA be the best it can be from the very top-down, to benefit all constructively.

You as members have the power ultimately – they work for you !!!

Yours Sincerely,

Tony Kilcoyne

Now Former Director of the PEC BDA Board.

[Gaz]

5 minutes ago, Skyline Drifter said:

Acknowledged, potentially. Not in the case of our school though. Not sure about cleaners but our school only has one janitor and one school meal person (she doesn't cook, the meals come in from outside, but I assume she plates up). Two admin staff usually right enough.

It sounds like you are talking more about secondary school to be fair? I assume that teachers having free time to plan and mark is not something so likely at primary school? To be honest, I'm guilty of basing all my comments round a primary here. I acknowledge the staffing will be very different at a secondary.

All teachers are entitled to the same non-contact time. Maximum class contact time for a FTE teacher in Scotland is 22.5 hours. Primary school teachers would typically have their non-contact time when classes are away at music, gym, library etc..

[Alert Mongoose]

Is there a Head’s Gone thread specifically for dentists? 

[Melanius Mullarkey]

11 minutes ago, Alert Mongoose said:

Is there a Head’s Gone thread specifically for dentists? 

Who caries?

[superbigal]

Is there a Head’s Gone thread specifically for dentists? 

Prof Leach would be in it that's for sure

[Jacksgranda]

30 minutes ago, superbigal said:

An update on the shambolic behaviour of the BDA currently is kind of exposed by a resignation of one of their more outspoken members.  Not especially Covid related but interesting a this top level .

Dear Colleagues,

It is with a heavy heart that I must announce I have resigned as a BDA PEC Board Director with immediate effect.

My gratitude for your support and my determination to make a positive difference has never waivered. Dentistry has never been just a job to me.

Unfortunately there has been a chronic, corrosive and perhaps dysfunctional, toxic or manipulative culture that has made my remaining in post untenable. I am a reasonably stoic fellow but for some time I have wondered ‘is it me?’

I was recently describing my observations confidentially and I was shown the signs of ‘institutionalised gaslighting’ and suddenly a lot of seemingly separate issues, were exposed more clearly.

I would now genuinely fear for a new Board member who may be at all vulnerable in such an unhealthy corrosive culture, that now seems to dominate PEC.

Currently I appear to be the victim of an internal BDA PEC campaign to discredit myself wrt Conflicts of Interests in my many innovative and progressive approaches for Dentistry, just before there are internal PEC elections for potentially a new PEC Chair and new Chair of the EEDT Committee, who normally wield a lot of power and influence in how PEC operates and upon the rest of the PEC Board. This is one area where our BDA members cannot vote or directly influence these leadership positions democratically.

The way I have been treated, disadvantaged unfairly, had minor matters catastrophised and even presented in a misleading or deliberately misleading way to other PEC members, has simply been unacceptable and unfair IMHO. A legal report was even commissioned without my agreement or input, where the content is incomplete, inaccurate, misleading or otherwise significantly compromised and thus not valid in many of its statements of facts, opinions, concerns or conclusions. It is so bad that when I was only given sight of this on Friday lunchtime for an online PEC meeting this Monday evening, which even in that unacceptably short timeframe, it is now already the subject of a formal complaint to the Solicitor and involving of the SRA too.

At 4.47pm this Monday evening, having previously asked to have sight of the ‘additional’ information PEC forwarded to inform Friday’s Legal report, I have only now received a huge bundle of 8 attachments with maybe 3 hrs notice pre-meeting and NO mention of my request to delay given, the late notice etc.

One of the attached papers even says this,

“A PEC member reports Tony to the Ethics and Professional Conduct Committee for behaviour likely to be ‘prejudicial to the interests of the Association.’ The EPCC may ultimately withdraw membership from Tony, hence removing him from the PEC.”

I hope you can come to realise that my whistleblowing like this is not only justified, but essential in my public duty, as I feel there is no prospect of being treated fairly internally and this is the only way to be fully open and transparent about the deep concerns about PEC, for the greater good overall. This really has not been easy for me as someone who champions and cares about the BDA and our Profession.

I want to emphasise this in no way reflects upon the great BDA frontline staff who have been exceptional in supporting members and others in this unprecedented crisis; The GDPC who have under their leadership been representing members, tackling 4 UK Country negotiations and even expanding their Private input significantly, to help all; The many other Committees, Country Councils and of course our Young Dentists Committee who represent the future of our great and often unappreciated Profession.

The BDA is by members, for members and I encourage you all to get involved, ask questions, make your feelings clear and help the BDA be the best it can be from the very top-down, to benefit all constructively.

You as members have the power ultimately – they work for you !!!

Yours Sincerely,

Tony Kilcoyne

Now Former Director of the PEC BDA Board.

He should have had that proof read.

[Bairnardo]

2 hours ago, beefybake said:

Track and Trace never was a fall back position for any of the countries that have dealt successfully with corononavirus. 

It was right there as a highest priority.

As of now, there is no proper functioning track and trace operation here in the UK,  so it's not really even a fallback.

Overall, what is being set up here is 'herd immunity' Mk2.

But having fucked that up initially, we are now paying for an extensive program of it. Not sure what you are suggesting here? It only works with low numbers, now is the time to remove lockdown and instead try to halt individual small scale outbreaks.

Just because we made a c**t of setting it up doesnt negate the point that it's absolutely what we should be doing surely?