Argentina 78: a reappraisal

[Monkey Tennis]

19 minutes ago, HibeeJibee said:

Btw an illustration of Scottish expectations at WC 1978: the Hamilton by-election was advanced 24hrs, to avoid clashing with opening game. Last-ever not on Thursday. (George Robertson beat Margo MacDonald).

That's incredible.  

It was a dismal goalless draw between West Germany and Poland as it happened too.  I could just about understand such an action if it was going to clash with a Scotland game, but doing it for the opener just seems bizarre.

[Lurkst]

24 minutes ago, HibeeJibee said:

Btw an illustration of Scottish expectations at WC 1978: the Hamilton by-election was advanced 24hrs, to avoid clashing with opening game. Last-ever not on Thursday. (George Robertson beat Margo MacDonald).

Would that have been the actual opening game as Scotland v Peru was on a Saturday?

I got back from a Sunday school trip to Culzean to watch it. Western double decker with streamers out the windows, Kwenchy Kups, crisps and a kickabout. What a stereotypical 1970s experience!

[Monkey Tennis]

13 minutes ago, Lurkst said:

Would that have been the actual opening game as Scotland v Peru was on a Saturday?

I got back from a Sunday school trip to Culzean to watch it. Western double decker with streamers out the windows, Kwenchy Kups, crisps and a kickabout. What a stereotypical 1970s experience!

My Saturday was less fun: First Holy Communion. 

My big sister had set off on a Scandinavian cruise on the SS Uganda the day before.  Weird that Primary school kids got to go on such things back then.

[HibeeJibee]

2 hours ago, Monkey Tennis said:

That's incredible.  

It was a dismal goalless draw between West Germany and Poland as it happened too.  I could just about understand such an action if it was going to clash with a Scotland game, but doing it for the opener just seems bizarre.

 

2 hours ago, Lurkst said:

Would that have been the actual opening game as Scotland v Peru was on a Saturday?

I got back from a Sunday school trip to Culzean to watch it. Western double decker with streamers out the windows, Kwenchy Kups, crisps and a kickabout. What a stereotypical 1970s experience!

That's correct West Germany 0-0 Poland. By my reckoning 3pm in Buenos Aires was 7pm here.

However if you're going to win the World Cup... you want to be watching the opening match...


While we're talking WCs and votes there is of course an 'urban myth' that England's QF exit in 1970 caused Harold Wilson to narrowly lose the election a few days later to Ted Heath.

My recollection is also that Motherwell 6-6 Hibs a few years ago was moved nights to avoid clashing with the election which brought David Cameron in.

[nate]

On 08/12/2021 at 16:52, Jacksgranda said:

That still rankles.

I had umpteen uncles who swore blind our player pool in the 60s was better than anything that came afterwards. I’d then ask them how come we qualified for nothing in the 60s. They blamed bad luck, injuries and mismanagement for our failure to qualify for anything back then. I’m not so sure. There’s a surprising amount of this old stuff up on the likes of YouTube and when you watch it a pattern starts to emerge: we were repeatedly beating, or at least matching, the big hitters but dropping vital points to the lesser nations. Examples of this are..

WCQ 66 - beating Group winners Italy but losing at home to Poland

ECQ 68 - beating the so-called world champions at Wembley but losing to northern Ireland

WCQ 70 - holding a formidable Germany but squandering points to Austria.

Complacency? Unable to raise our game consistently? Who knows. Maybe just a case of individual talents - Baxter, McNeil, Law, Cooke, Crerand, Jinky etc - who couldn’t gel collectively.

[BFTD]

26 minutes ago, nate said:

we were repeatedly beating, or at least matching, the big hitters but dropping vital points to the lesser nations.

Not having that. That doesn't sound like Scotland at all!

[Lurkst]

46 minutes ago, nate said:

WCQ 70 - holding a formidable Germany but squandering points to Austria.

The Germans beat us too (at football anyway)...

 

[Ewan8472]

2 hours ago, nate said:

I had umpteen uncles who swore blind our player pool in the 60s was better than anything that came afterwards. I’d then ask them how come we qualified for nothing in the 60s. They blamed bad luck, injuries and mismanagement for our failure to qualify for anything back then. I’m not so sure. There’s a surprising amount of this old stuff up on the likes of YouTube and when you watch it a pattern starts to emerge: we were repeatedly beating, or at least matching, the big hitters but dropping vital points to the lesser nations. Examples of this are..

WCQ 66 - beating Group winners Italy but losing at home to Poland

ECQ 68 - beating the so-called world champions at Wembley but losing to northern Ireland

WCQ 70 - holding a formidable Germany but squandering points to Austria.

Complacency? Unable to raise our game consistently? Who knows. Maybe just a case of individual talents - Baxter, McNeil, Law, Cooke, Crerand, Jinky etc - who couldn’t gel collectively.

WCQ 1970 - never mind Austria , we lost 

                       2 - 3 in West Germany despite scoring two goals   Our defence let us down again 

and Tommy G. could not wait a wee bit longer before exacting retribution !

[Ewan8472]

2 hours ago, nate said:

I had umpteen uncles who swore blind our player pool in the 60s was better than anything that came afterwards. I’d then ask them how come we qualified for nothing in the 60s. They blamed bad luck, injuries and mismanagement for our failure to qualify for anything back then. I’m not so sure. There’s a surprising amount of this old stuff up on the likes of YouTube and when you watch it a pattern starts to emerge: we were repeatedly beating, or at least matching, the big hitters but dropping vital points to the lesser nations. Examples of this are..

WCQ 66 - beating Group winners Italy but losing at home to Poland

ECQ 68 - beating the so-called world champions at Wembley but losing to northern Ireland

WCQ 70 - holding a formidable Germany but squandering points to Austria.

Complacency? Unable to raise our game consistently? Who knows. Maybe just a case of individual talents - Baxter, McNeil, Law, Cooke, Crerand, Jinky etc - who couldn’t gel collectively.

The away game v. Italy in 1965 was infamous for all the players we were missing  injured

[Ewan8472]

3 hours ago, nate said:

I had umpteen uncles who swore blind our player pool in the 60s was better than anything that came afterwards. I’d then ask them how come we qualified for nothing in the 60s. They blamed bad luck, injuries and mismanagement for our failure to qualify for anything back then. I’m not so sure. There’s a surprising amount of this old stuff up on the likes of YouTube and when you watch it a pattern starts to emerge: we were repeatedly beating, or at least matching, the big hitters but dropping vital points to the lesser nations. Examples of this are..

WCQ 66 - beating Group winners Italy but losing at home to Poland

ECQ 68 - beating the so-called world champions at Wembley but losing to northern Ireland

WCQ 70 - holding a formidable Germany but squandering points to Austria.

Complacency? Unable to raise our game consistently? Who knows. Maybe just a case of individual talents - Baxter, McNeil, Law, Cooke, Crerand, Jinky etc - who couldn’t gel collectively.

Some of them could gel collectively !

But others , even from the same team , could not !

Edited December 10, 2021 by Ewan8472

[Marlow]

I suppose we have strayed far from Argentina. I've never been sure if this is a false memory, but do any of the other veterans remember hearing the Scotland players arguing with each other during the Iran game? Did the mikes around the pitch not pick up some snash among them?

Another forgotten factor about Argentina were the goals against Holland that were disallowed. Legend has it that a players' revolt led to them picking the team for Holland. If that's true it's a pity they hadn't picked the team against Iran, too, which was were that campaign went spectacularly wrong, not in the Peru game.

[Jacksgranda]

22 minutes ago, Marlow said:

I suppose we have strayed far from Argentina. I've never been sure if this is a false memory, but do any of the other veterans remember hearing the Scotland players arguing with each other during the Iran game? Did the mikes around the pitch not pick up some snash among them?

Another forgotten factor about Argentina were the goals against Holland that were disallowed. Legend has it that a players' revolt led to them picking the team for Holland. If that's true it's a pity they hadn't picked the team against Iran, too, which was were that campaign went spectacularly wrong, not in the Peru game.

Yes

[Marlow]

This thread has got me re-reading "78: How a Nation Lost the World Cup". John Haggart, McLeod's assistant, reveals in it that Ally literally never watched Iran, even when Haggart went to watch them train two nights before the game, McLeod was like, what do you want o bother watching them for? He also said that he and McLeod had agreed that Souness would play against Iran, along with two other players (I have a feeling Jim Blyth might have been one for something else said in the book), only for Ally to change his mind almost at the last minute and drop all three.

 

 

[Ewan8472]

On 11/12/2021 at 14:07, Jacksgranda said:

Yes

What were they saying ?

Kenny Burns encouraging Stewart Kennedy ?

Something I do not remember !

[Ewan8472]

1 hour ago, Marlow said:

This thread has got me re-reading "78: How a Nation Lost the World Cup". John Haggart, McLeod's assistant, reveals in it that Ally literally never watched Iran, even when Haggart went to watch them train two nights before the game, McLeod was like, what do you want o bother watching them for? He also said that he and McLeod had agreed that Souness would play against Iran, along with two other players (I have a feeling Jim Blyth might have been one for something else said in the book), only for Ally to change his mind almost at the last minute and drop all three.

 

 

 

What a **** !

[Jacksgranda]

17 minutes ago, Ewan8472 said:

What were they saying ?

Kenny Burns encouraging Stewart Kennedy ?

Something I do not remember !

Telling each other to "f*** off", as far as I remember

[Ewan8472]

32 minutes ago, Jacksgranda said:

Telling each other to "f*** off", as far as I remember

Kenny v. ?

[Marlow]

51 minutes ago, Jacksgranda said:

Telling each other to "f*** off", as far as I remember

That's what I remember, too. 

The were not a very united or happy overall squad, according to the "78" book.

[Anfield 1977]

2 hours ago, Marlow said:

This thread has got me re-reading "78: How a Nation Lost the World Cup". John Haggart, McLeod's assistant, reveals in it that Ally literally never watched Iran, even when Haggart went to watch them train two nights before the game, McLeod was like, what do you want o bother watching them for? He also said that he and McLeod had agreed that Souness would play against Iran, along with two other players (I have a feeling Jim Blyth might have been one for something else said in the book), only for Ally to change his mind almost at the last minute and drop all three.

 

 

MacLeod had made arrangements to watch the France V Iran match in Paris on the Wednesday before the opening Home International match.

However with the game clashing with live screening of the European Cup Final in France it was rearranged for the Friday night. This meant he would struggle to get back for the N. Ireland match and also miss out on the preparation. as the squad assembled on the Wednesday - minus the Liverpool players.

[Marlow]

21 hours ago, Anfield 1977 said:

MacLeod had made arrangements to watch the France V Iran match in Paris on the Wednesday before the opening Home International match.

However with the game clashing with live screening of the European Cup Final in France it was rearranged for the Friday night. This meant he would struggle to get back for the N. Ireland match and also miss out on the preparation. as the squad assembled on the Wednesday - minus the Liverpool players.

Still not much of an excuse for literally never having watched them, or had them watched. Arthur Montford said he was embarrassed that the Iranian journalists there were all surprised that McLeod hadn't even sent someone he trusted to watch Iran play and make notes on them in games prior to the World Cup, and when his assistant John Haggart, on his own initiative, went to watch them in training, he reported back to McLeod that they were very athletic, fit and very good at moving around the pitch, which McLeod dismissed by just saying "we'll have too much in our armoury for them".

 

I liked Ally (I met him once and he was really great company and a lovely person) but he was not up to it. Having said that, Stein, Fergie and Roxburgh, for all their preparations, didn't do any better than him in World Cups, I suppose.

Edited December 14, 2021 by Marlow