Wee Bully Posted April 29, 2023 Share Posted April 29, 2023 12 hours ago, f_c_dundee said: Attempting to be brief, but have also had a beverage or 2 while watching the horror that is Dundee FC They're not annoying questions, bit quite commonly asked. Really, it's not all about toilets. In the USA there is a lot of chat about 'Bathroom Bills" which tends to divert discussion at times. There quite obviously wouldn't and shouldn't ever be checks, genital or otherwise - that's a nonsense idea. We managed without even *thinking* about checks for many years, when transsexuals (as was the description in the original UK GRC legislation) genuinely were a tiny minority, estimated at around 4-5000 people in the UK in 2004. Estimates now of how many people identify as trans vary a lot but you're now talking about multiples of 6 figures, not 4 figures. The bar is also a lot lower thanks to organisations being advised to implement self id policies "ahead of the law", in the assumption that GRA 2004 reforms would go through unchallenged. Plus the 'umbrella' expanding to include cross dressers, 'gender fluid' and 'non binary' individuals. What has changed, in essence, is the push to discard previous societal norms - that males should not be accessing or expecting to use women's changing rooms or toilets (see also prisons, hospital wards, refuges, support groups etc. etc). The societal protection afforded by the taboo of entering opposite sex toilets (or any other single sex spaces) is weakened by this, if people are worried to challenge anyone and/or if unisex facilities are the only ones available. Women who have transitioned and present as male is a different issue. While they might cause alarm to some women initially if they appear convincingly male, any women I've encountered online or in RL is unbothered by them using female facilities in principle. The the overriding issue in discussion is the likely behaviour and/or danger from men, who are *on average* larger, stronger and hugely more likely to commit violent and sexual crimes. The reason trans men are mentioned much less often, is that there are fewer of them loudly demanding access to male spaces and they are not exactly causing a risk/nuisance to men. It's not zero - ask the gay men who don't have any interest in them. However although they aren't always respecting men's wishes or men's single sex spaces, dating apps etc., They are more at risk themselves e.g if they insisted on going to a male prison. A mess, really. Sexual predators are well known for not entering women’s single sex spaces at the moment due to “taboo”. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
f_c_dundee Posted April 29, 2023 Share Posted April 29, 2023 5 hours ago, Wee Bully said: Sexual predators are well known for not entering women’s single sex spaces at the moment due to “taboo”. Yes, that was the case. Although it's rare overall, the drift to self ID has enabled chancers, I don't believe you can deny that. I've pinched an explanation that I saw shared of the criminal/ social theory involved from someone more eloquent than me and included their link to Wikipedia: "en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Routine_activity_theory A crime exists because there is a combination of an offender, a suitable target and a lack of a capable guardian. At the moment, the courtesy system means people using/supplying women's spaces act as a capable guardian as they can challenge any male appearing person if they sense a threat. (And trans women have been using our spaces unchallenged for years, which shows that if no threat is perceived women are happy for trans women to share space) If self-ID comes in, women and girls won't be able to perform that capable guardian function. Indeed we already see guidance suggesting that women raising concerns are the problem and should be the ones asked to use private spaces instead. Routine activity theory shows that removal of the capable guardian will increase crimes” I've also seen it described using the "Swiss cheese model" - 2 of the layers of protection are sex segregated spaces and the people raising the concerns. It's not about demonising trans people, it's about realising the potential effect of these societal changes and dealing with them, not denying they exist. -3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wee Bully Posted April 29, 2023 Share Posted April 29, 2023 2 hours ago, f_c_dundee said: Yes, that was the case. Although it's rare overall, the drift to self ID has enabled chancers, I don't believe you can deny that. I can deny that.- show me the evidence. We’ve had self-ID in Ireland for a number of years.. What has happened there? 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theroadlesstravelled Posted April 29, 2023 Share Posted April 29, 2023 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
f_c_dundee Posted April 29, 2023 Share Posted April 29, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, Wee Bully said: I can deny that.- show me the evidence. We’ve had self-ID in Ireland for a number of years.. What has happened there? Several prisoners having to have close supervision in women's prisons for one. Barbie Kardashian anyone? Leo Varadkar's face was a picture when he was finally challenged by a journalist on the issue. https://twitter.com/WomensSocIre/status/1638262631927631889?t=YHYYbBxdeOiAs8DfYSm2BA&s=19 Edited April 29, 2023 by f_c_dundee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carpetmonster Posted April 29, 2023 Share Posted April 29, 2023 21 minutes ago, f_c_dundee said: Several prisoners having to have close supervision in women's prisons for one. Barbie Kardashian anyone? Leo Varadkar's face was a picture when he was finally challenged by a journalist on the issue. https://twitter.com/WomensSocIre/status/1638262631927631889?t=YHYYbBxdeOiAs8DfYSm2BA&s=19 From the looks of it they’d need close supervision whichever prison they were in. https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/crime/barbie-kardashian-under-garda-investigation-29820564.amp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theroadlesstravelled Posted April 29, 2023 Share Posted April 29, 2023 Colorado Democrats in the state House have voted against enhancing criminal penalties for indecent exposure in view of a minor as the bill could be used to "ban" drag shows. Showing your willie to kids should be a felony. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wee Bully Posted April 30, 2023 Share Posted April 30, 2023 9 hours ago, f_c_dundee said: Several prisoners having to have close supervision in women's prisons for one. Barbie Kardashian anyone? Leo Varadkar's face was a picture when he was finally challenged by a journalist on the issue. https://twitter.com/WomensSocIre/status/1638262631927631889?t=YHYYbBxdeOiAs8DfYSm2BA&s=19 It’s really not. Prisoners should be under close supervision, and the fact you’ve gone to a prison example shows that you have no evidence that self- ID has “enabled chancers” in the real world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trogdor Posted April 30, 2023 Share Posted April 30, 2023 1 hour ago, Wee Bully said: It’s really not. Prisoners should be under close supervision, and the fact you’ve gone to a prison example shows that you have no evidence that self- ID has “enabled chancers” in the real world. Wait, prison isn't the real world? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
f_c_dundee Posted April 30, 2023 Share Posted April 30, 2023 10 hours ago, carpetmonster said: From the looks of it they’d need close supervision whichever prison they were in. https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/crime/barbie-kardashian-under-garda-investigation-29820564.amp It's his mother he's threatened and other women he's attacked viciously though. Sounds like he's had a really horrendous life, but he still has to be detained safely, as a very dangerous person. Women's prisons generally have limited facility for highly dangerous prisoners as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
f_c_dundee Posted April 30, 2023 Share Posted April 30, 2023 53 minutes ago, Trogdor said: Wait, prison isn't the real world? Yeah, prisoners are expendable or something Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
f_c_dundee Posted April 30, 2023 Share Posted April 30, 2023 2 hours ago, Wee Bully said: It’s really not. Prisoners should be under close supervision, and the fact you’ve gone to a prison example shows that you have no evidence that self- ID has “enabled chancers” in the real world. Self ID as law isn't the issue though. It's the fact that it's already been presented as the right thing to do and been accepted in so many places. My workplace is one of the ones with a policy that says if I'm unhappy that a man identifying as a woman wants to use the toilets or changing rooms, I should go elsewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cb_diamond Posted April 30, 2023 Share Posted April 30, 2023 Is there an official P+B bylaw which states that this thread can't go more than a page without the term "sock puppet" being wheeled out? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BFTD Posted April 30, 2023 Share Posted April 30, 2023 18 minutes ago, cb_diamond said: Is there an official P+B bylaw which states that this thread can't go more than a page without the term "sock puppet" being wheeled out? Yes, it's in the section that demands every page must be commented upon by at least one new account that signed up and headed straight for the Politics board on a football forum. 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy Jean King Posted April 30, 2023 Share Posted April 30, 2023 (edited) This is all getting dangerously close to the Inbetweeners scene where Jay is telling his mates about the guy who got stuck in the recycling bin By the time someone found him in the morning, he had been arse-raped 18 times." Edited April 30, 2023 by Billy Jean King 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
f_c_dundee Posted April 30, 2023 Share Posted April 30, 2023 8 hours ago, Billy Jean King said: This is all getting dangerously close to the Inbetweeners scene where Jay is telling his mates about the guy who got stuck in the recycling bin By the time someone found him in the morning, he had been arse-raped 18 times." In what way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savage Henry Posted April 30, 2023 Share Posted April 30, 2023 59 minutes ago, f_c_dundee said: In what way? Do you need a diagram? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BFTD Posted April 30, 2023 Share Posted April 30, 2023 41 minutes ago, Savage Henry said: Do you need a diagram? @throbber, I think your presence is required. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benjamin_Nevis Posted May 1, 2023 Share Posted May 1, 2023 19 hours ago, cb_diamond said: Is there an official P+B bylaw which states that this thread can't go more than a page without the term "sock puppet" being wheeled out? Impressed that your only upvotes for this were quite literally from three of them. Perhaps if these tragic losers didn't feel the need to keep creating new accounts to be edgelords on the Politics sub of a fitba forum, everyone wouldn't feel the need to ridicule them. -1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sophia Posted May 1, 2023 Share Posted May 1, 2023 10 minutes ago, Benjamin_Nevis said: Impressed that your only upvotes for this were quite literally from three of them. Perhaps if these tragic losers didn't feel the need to keep creating new accounts to be edgelords on the Politics sub of a fitba forum, everyone wouldn't feel the need to ridicule them. Everyone? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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