People's opinions of the split (..and possible reconstruction?)

[topcat(The most tip top)]

I don't dispute that at all.
But Hearts, Aberdeen, and Hibs would probably really like to shove them around.
Not saying it's right, but we've basically got all the non-OF clubs essentially just fighting for themselves. It's stupid.

It was the oversimplification of categorising “Non-OF clubs” as a single homogeneous group with closely aligned interests that I was highlighting.

Celtic may attract crowds three times the size of Hibs but Hibs pull in three times as many as St Johnstone*




* rhetorical device precise ratios may vary

[Steve McQueen]

I see Bundesliga are investigating a playoff system for the league winners.

Do you think that would pass the 11-1 vote here?

[craigkillie]

7 hours ago, Kyle Reese said:

A big issue here, is the non-OF clubs will never work together in this way. Many will side with the OF so that they can keep getting the money from their away supporters four times a season. I seem to remember Johnston and Brown the previous owners of Kilmarnock and St Johnstone taking such a stance previously when it came to discussions on possible improvements. Then there was Milne who kyboshed a change to the voting system. I've long thought that HMFC, Hibs and Aberdeen should have a wee working committee similar to the one Rangers and Celtic have, and back each other when there's mutually beneficial issues to address. The OF have been doing this very well for years.

 

Johnston had a lot of issues, and famously abstained on the Rangers vote, but he was fairly vociferously against the Old Firm most of the time. I remember him giving a fairly bombastic interview on Sportsound regarding the 11-1 vote and the split of TV money.

[Kyle Reese]

1 hour ago, craigkillie said:

 

Johnston had a lot of issues, and famously abstained on the Rangers vote, but he was fairly vociferously against the Old Firm most of the time. I remember him giving a fairly bombastic interview on Sportsound regarding the 11-1 vote and the split of TV money.

Think it must have been the Rangers vote I was thinking of. I remember reading his statement at the time and thinking ‘what a dick’.

[10menwent2mow]

I think if the SPFL were a lot more transparent on how the post split fixtures are drawn up, folk may be happier. I've heard talk of 'seedings' and 'top 6 same as last season' as starting points. But let's face it, the first two criteria are that Celtic and Rangers get 2 games against each other at home and that they both have a 19/19 split of home and away games. If either half of the old firm have ever had an 18/20 home away split, I will stand corrected. 

Then it's a case of fitting everyone else around that while trying not to have a team travel to Glasgow 6 times in a season which may result in a 1/3 3/1 split or a 1/3 2/2 split but certainly never a 3/1 2/2. 

If teams battling it out for Europe are put out by this, tough. 

As for the bottom 6, there may be issues around allocation but I highly doubt that if Utd and Dundee finish in the bottom half this season, the principle decision in drawing up the fixtures will be that they should have 2 derbies at home each and likewise if Hibs and Hearts finish in the top half. 

[TheScarf]

11 hours ago, Steve McQueen said:

I see Bundesliga are investigating a playoff system for the league winners.

Do you think that would pass the 11-1 vote here?

It's pretty pointless doing it in Germany.  Bayern would still win every season.

[Ranaldo Bairn]

And if they did do it, they'd have to stick with it.

The very idea of doing it every second year is utterly, totally, mind-cripplingly insane.

 

[Obvious gag] The SPFL are looking very closely at the idea. [/obvious gag]

[topcat(The most tip top)]

I think if the SPFL were a lot more transparent on how the post split fixtures are drawn up, folk may be happier. I've heard talk of 'seedings' and 'top 6 same as last season' as starting points. But let's face it, the first two criteria are that Celtic and Rangers get 2 games against each other at home and that they both have a 19/19 split of home and away games. If either half of the old firm have ever had an 18/20 home away split, I will stand corrected. 
Then it's a case of fitting everyone else around that while trying not to have a team travel to Glasgow 6 times in a season which may result in a 1/3 3/1 split or a 1/3 2/2 split but certainly never a 3/1 2/2. 
If teams battling it out for Europe are put out by this, tough. 
As for the bottom 6, there may be issues around allocation but I highly doubt that if Utd and Dundee finish in the bottom half this season, the principle decision in drawing up the fixtures will be that they should have 2 derbies at home each and likewise if Hibs and Hearts finish in the top half. 

They have gone out of their way to balance out the Edinburgh Derbies in the past

[Ranaldo Bairn]

Iain Blair, secretary of the SPL, wrote an article on the old SPL website a few years ago explaining all the rationale behind decisions made around the split.

It was quite interesting.

Edited February 11, 2022 by Ranaldo Bairn

[Dons_1988]

I get this isn’t 100% serious but the SPFL would never, ever go for a playoff to decide the title. 

On the presumption the winner also gets CL, they would not want hearts, Aberdeen or something even more Diddy than that to be snatching a CL place in a knockout format. 

I also don’t really agree with it in principle. I think it tackles the symptom of resource inequality rather than the cause. 

[oneteaminglasgow]

Do the SPFL not routinely try to avoid the possibility of either Rangers or Celtic being able to secure the title against the other? I’m sure I’ve heard that but it may well be nonsense.

If it is true, I can’t see them being up for a playoff which would, more often than not, result in that exact scenario. 

[Dons_1988]

Just now, oneteaminglasgow said:

Do the SPFL not routinely try to avoid the possibility of either Rangers or Celtic being able to secure the title against the other? I’m sure I’ve heard that but it may well be nonsense.

If it is true, I can’t see them being up for a playoff which would, more often than not, result in that exact scenario. 

I think the police lobby to try and avoid it and the spfl normally accommodate within reason. 

[craigkillie]

2 minutes ago, Dons_1988 said:

I think the police lobby to try and avoid it and the spfl normally accommodate within reason. 

 

Something which is becoming less easy to justify given that there have been at least two potential title deciders involving them in the last 10 years or so.

[Dons_1988]

4 minutes ago, IDoNotKnowThisOne said:

Great point. 
 

How would you get to the root of the cause? 
 

Wage cap? 
 

Certain number of youth players in every XI? 

the most radical, never going to happen scenario, would be for the spfl to pool revenue from all clubs and it to be distributed using some sort of model. This is a pretty complex issue though and plenty of it is driven by factors outside of Scotland so I don’t think it’ll ever be solved tbh. 

3 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

 

Something which is becoming less easy to justify given that there have been at least two potential title deciders involving them in the last 10 years or so.

Agreed but the recent occasions were more Celtic confirming what we already knew against them. I think the police would be genuinely fearful if they played on the final day going in level on points, for example. 

[ol1vercloff]

I think the English pyramid system is spot on.  Of course, we would struggle financially to form 4 league divisions with 20 teams each, but we need to at least scrap the relegation playoff.  What an utterly depressing occasion.  England gets their playoffs absolutely bang on.  It should be about in form teams battling to win promotion at the national stadium, not battling to avoid relegation at Recreation Park or something.

[craigkillie]

7 minutes ago, Dons_1988 said:

Agreed but the recent occasions were more Celtic confirming what we already knew against them. I think the police would be genuinely fearful if they played on the final day going in level on points, for example. 

 

I get that, but in principle it's not really that different to a cup final involving both, albeit those have been rare of late. If anything, it's easier because there are fewer fans of whichever team is away from home.

[GNU_Linux]

All for an apetura/clasura format for the sole purpose of witnessing pundits taking about two years to understand the concept if them trying to grasp the Nations League is a benchmark

[Leith Green]

5 minutes ago, IDoNotKnowThisOne said:

I'd like to see the X amount of players from your youth system in the starting XI.

There might be one or two clubs that disagree.

In the recent Celtic v Rangers game, there were 3 Scottish players on the field at kick off.........

[Dons_1988]

3 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

 

I get that, but in principle it's not really that different to a cup final involving both, albeit those have been rare of late. If anything, it's easier because there are fewer fans of whichever team is away from home.

That is true. 

I’m not really defending it. In principle I don’t like the police having undue influence over Football scheduling and rules, so I’d be happy to bin it. 

I guess their counter to your argument would be that the very nature of cups makes it something they can’t influence without somehow interfering with cup draws to ensure they met before the final. A league calendar is more open to avoiding unnecessary powder keg fixtures. 

Like I say, I don’t support it. 

[10menwent2mow]

As far as reconstruction goes. I've always been a pretty vocal critic of a 14/16/18 team league. 

14 - would only work with a split after 26 and a total of 38 games, for me that split comes too early. 

16 - 30 games is too short a season and a split after 30 would mean 37, and a home away imbalance that the OF would moan about spectacularly

18 - I don't think we have enough 'top flight clubs' for an 18 team league. In the last 10 years I think only Caley, Killie and Hamilton have been in the top flight. If you extend that to 20 years you might take in Dunfermline, Falkirk and Partick. You need 24 clubs capable of being top flight if you want an 18 team league and we don't have that. That's without mentioning a 34 game season, only 2 Glasgow Derbies for broadcasters and the ridiculous amount of meaningless games it would bring. 

 

The current system is not flawless but I actually quite like it. However this season I think will see quite heavy criticism as with teams from 4th to 10th separated by only 6 points and potentially 5th carrying a European place, there may be some uproar. However, teams know that game 33 is the cut off for making that top half so they need to get their houses in order to do so.