The Passive Nature of the Modern Scottish Football Fan

[HibsFan]

 This isn't meant as a dig at anyone in particular, but something from the "Conference League" thread made me think about a wider point in Scottish football.

On 02/05/2023 at 05:23, GreenGray said:

I hate it. But I have learned over time not to get angry with decisions made in Scottish Football as it makes no difference and in the end the wrong decision will get made made no matter what.

Sad state of affairs.

It's a feeling that I find myself coming round to more and more as bad decision after bad decision is made by those running the game in Scotland.

Take a look at just this season, for example:

• VAR introduced with virtually zero consultation of supporters
• Ticket prices raised again all over the country, not least for the semi finals (£38 for a Falkirk - Inverness CT seat in the North Stand)
• More Lowland League shenanigans and outright bribery to keep the colt teams in
• Only for that not to be enough because here comes the Conference League
• The general existence of Viaplay
• Even down to the minor things such as moving the Scottish Cup final from a 3pm kickoff to appease the TV companies
• St Johnstone's £30 cup tickets and whoring out three sides of their stadium despite fans' protests

And for every one of these decisions, I've raged about it on here, I've written to Hibs about a couple of them, I've actively stopped putting money into the club.

But for what? There are malevolent forces within the running of Scottish football who care about nothing other than furthering the inequality and extracting more money from every possible corner.

GreenGray makes a good point in some ways, is it better just to sit back serenely and admit defeat on fighting it? I and others get angry but it's not productive.

Although, as somebody pointed out, the 2012 Rangers debacle showed that the boardroom do listen to us on occasion; if the threat of closed wallets is there.

So my question to everyone is: how do we counter this sense of apathy in Scottish football and fight back, like we did in 2012? I am reminded of @craigkillie, who I'm pretty sure once talked about the need for some sort of Scottish Football Union for supporters. We have one of the highest attendances per capita and a TV deal that, at some level, needs fans in the grounds to drum up interest. Does the average Scottish supporter have a lot more power than they realise?

My theory on this is that we as the working / middle class are being ground down in every facet of life: fighting for fairer pay, fairer working conditions, even in other parts of football having to fight against stupid things like the Super League.

I just do not think I have the energy to fight another front against people who are, putting it generously, incompetent and, perhaps more accurately, trying their best just to line the pockets of a select few investors and stakeholders.

Anyway, incredibly long-winded post. So I've stuck a couple of polls in there too for good measure.

[Sergeant Wilson]

33 minutes ago, HibsFan said:

 This isn't meant as a dig at anyone in particular, but something from the "Conference League" thread made me think about a wider point in Scottish football.

It's a feeling that I find myself coming round to more and more as bad decision after bad decision is made by those running the game in Scotland.

Take a look at just this season, for example:

• VAR introduced with virtually zero consultation of supporters
• Ticket prices raised again all over the country, not least for the semi finals (£38 for a Falkirk - Inverness CT seat in the North Stand)
• More Lowland League shenanigans and outright bribery to keep the colt teams in
• Only for that not to be enough because here comes the Conference League
• The general existence of Viaplay
• Even down to the minor things such as moving the Scottish Cup final from a 3pm kickoff to appease the TV companies
• St Johnstone's £30 cup tickets and whoring out three sides of their stadium despite fans' protests

And for every one of these decisions, I've raged about it on here, I've written to Hibs about a couple of them, I've actively stopped putting money into the club.

But for what? There are malevolent forces within the running of Scottish football who care about nothing other than furthering the inequality and extracting more money from every possible corner.

GreenGray makes a good point in some ways, is it better just to sit back serenely and admit defeat on fighting it? I and others get angry but it's not productive.

Although, as somebody pointed out, the 2012 Rangers debacle showed that the boardroom do listen to us on occasion; if the threat of closed wallets is there.

So my question to everyone is: how do we counter this sense of apathy in Scottish football and fight back, like we did in 2012? I am reminded of @craigkillie, who I'm pretty sure once talked about the need for some sort of Scottish Football Union for supporters. We have one of the highest attendances per capita and a TV deal that, at some level, needs fans in the grounds to drum up interest. Does the average Scottish supporter have a lot more power than they realise?

My theory on this is that we as the working / middle class are being ground down in every facet of life: fighting for fairer pay, fairer working conditions, even in other parts of football having to fight against stupid things like the Super League.

I just do not think I have the energy to fight another front against people who are, putting it generously, incompetent and, perhaps more accurately, trying their best just to line the pockets of a select few investors and stakeholders.

Anyway, incredibly long-winded post. So I've stuck a couple of polls in there too for good measure.

I can't be bothered voting.

[naegoodinthedark]

This is deep. 

[ATLIS]

I think to get something like that off the ground you realistically need something to aim for:

Expanded top flight, definitive no to B teams, fairer financial distribution of funds throughout the SPFL? It also needs to be something fans of most clubs can agree on and unite behind. 

At this point VAR is just proving ineffective and the debate around decisions has gotten even worse this season. This season we're seeing pretty much every club hike up season ticket prices to compete with other clubs who do the same and blame costs. I can imagine next season will see £30 away tickets become the norm which is ridiculous. VAR is getting some of the blame for it too, down to the 'unexpected' costs of running it. 

Then you've got the piss poor deals negotiated by Doncaster who should've been gone long ago. Scottish football is being set up by Sky as a sideshow to English football rather than something that stands through the merit it's earned. Cup finals being moved to accommodate the English game is another new ground being broken where we come off second best. 

I don't think clubs are taking notice when people withhold their money anymore, look at the Ross County fans that boycotted the club when Malky was appointed, f**k all happened. You'd need nearly all of the top flight clubs to be spooked enough by people refusing to put money in to get change in the first place, they wont do it from the good of their heart. 

You probably need a centralised group that's being supported by core fan groups at nearly every club through the SPFL. You then need a clear plan on what needs to be changed, then get people on board with that. None of that even guarantees a foot in the door to the discussion either, so you then need people to actively look to 'disrupt' their own clubs. 

I think too many people will get caught up in not wanting to weaken their own clubs when fans of other teams might not follow through and then your team is at a disadvantage. Also the fact that people probably don't want to shake up their routine of going to games weekly as well, I know I'd miss going to games on a Saturday. 

[invergowrie arab]

Karl Marx wrote about false consciousness and the social environment created by capitalism masking the inherent inequalities in the system from the proletariat.

Nobody listened and now we have VAR and B teams.

[GreenGray]

Did not expect that post to lead to a thread but not complaining

As I said later on in that thread I was against the introduction of VAR and I always found it criminal that the clubs did not consult their fans on the decision.

 

Some sort of union or fan representation is needed, without us Scottish football would die, unlike the PL our clubs rely on gate money but despite this we are continually shafted.

[bennett]

Did anyone else read Question 2 option 2 in a He Man voice?

[Dunfermline Don]

I remember in the 80s down south, hooliganism was rife, clubs banned from Europe, crowds were at an all time low, stadiums crumbling.

An issue that galvanised many supporters was opposition to the government’s plan to introduce ID cards for football. The Football Supporters Association were very vocal in their opposition and helped by a growing fanzine movement.

ID cards never came in, but it can be argued that the game in England, especially in their top flight is probably unaffordable for many of the type of supporters who used to go back then. 

[Archie McSquackle]

It's taken them a while but they're pretty much going down the ID card route, just it's for voting now instead. 

[Dons_1988]

There should be fan representation in the SPFL executive or even have some sort of voting power along with clubs. But this will not happen. 

In terms of significant decisions, fans are seen as a barrier to ‘progress’ or ‘growth’. I’m absolutely convinced that’s why VAR was rushed through without any consultation, because they knew the answer that would come back at them. 

I’m not saying fans should be making these decisions, many fans are irrational, partisan or ill informed on the details. But these things are often used as blanket terms to describe supporters and then as a tool to dismiss concerns. 

There is no accountability in decision making to fans, at all. The only way to hold them accountable to be actively telling them that it’s unacceptable. The reason we changed course in 2012 was because people followed through and withheld money. The clubs were left with no choice. 

That is required again to exert influence here. It’s incredibly difficult to get fans unified on anything but I would support a genuine movement to do something. 

[thisGRAEME]

48 minutes ago, ATLIS said:

Expanded top flight, definitive no to B teams, fairer financial distribution of funds throughout the SPFL? It also needs to be something fans of most clubs can agree on and unite behind. 

 

This, in essence for me is where things immediately collapse in terms of "how do you make it better?", because ultimately, what is "better"?

Don't get me wrong, I broadly agree with a lot of the things raising in the OP, but on the things highlighted you seek above, particularly around ticket pricing,  the cost of football, VAR and fan consultation, but in this scenario you're asking clubs to either give up money to give to other clubs lower down the pyramid in terms of distribution, or asking clubs to make less money in an expanded league.

I think it possibly leads to a more level playing field, but in reality, makes the on-field 'quality' quite significantly worse, with less money for players, coaching, staff, the lot.

Any sort of "fan movement" has to be simple, has to easily explainable, and has to benefit all fans equally. Getting into the weeds of league structures and financial distribution just isn't feasible, imo.

If fans sought a change, something like the campaign led by Dortmund in a type of "twenty's plenty" principle about away ticketing was something that was successful because it was universal and easily explainable, would be the type of change that benefits matchgoers, is achievable, and should be the basis of how to enact change, imo; https://www.espn.com/soccer/german-bundesliga/story/2558227/borussia-dortmund-fans-to-launch-kein-zwanni-ticket-protest

[Dons_1988]

Just now, thisGRAEME said:

This, in essence for me is where things immediately collapse in terms of "how do you make it better?", because ultimately, what is "better"?

Don't get me wrong, I broadly agree with a lot of the things raising in the OP, but on the things highlighted you seek above, particularly around ticket pricing,  the cost of football, VAR and fan consultation, but in this scenario you're asking clubs to either give up money to give to other clubs lower down the pyramid in terms of distribution, or asking clubs to make less money in an expanded league.

I think it possibly leads to a more level playing field, but in reality, makes the on-field 'quality' quite significantly worse, with less money for players, coaching, staff, the lot.

Any sort of "fan movement" has to be simple, has to easily explainable, and has to benefit all fans equally. Getting into the weeds of league structures and financial distribution just isn't feasible, imo.

If fans sought a change, something like the campaign led by Dortmund in a type of "twenty's plenty" principle about away ticketing was something that was successful because it was universal and easily explainable, would be the type of change that benefits matchgoers, is achievable, and should be the basis of how to enact change, imo; https://www.espn.com/soccer/german-bundesliga/story/2558227/borussia-dortmund-fans-to-launch-kein-zwanni-ticket-protest

I agree, if you set out some sort of manifesto with specific requests then a) clubs will get their back up and defensive and b) you’re unlikely to unify supporters enough to rally around it. 

To me, we should be pushing for fan representation in the macro decision making of the game as per my previous post. Not necessarily enough voting power that fans can effectively veto any proposal but enough that clubs are accountable and have to be transparent and justify why they want to take significant actions such as a conference league or VAR. 

[BFTD]

It's worth remembering that, for all the complaints we have about how football is run in this country (and who it's run for the benefit of), people like Neil Doncaster remain in their jobs because the boards at our clubs are generally happy with the job they're doing.

[thisGRAEME]

3 minutes ago, Dons_1988 said:

I agree, if you set out some sort of manifesto with specific requests then a) clubs will get their back up and defensive and b) you’re unlikely to unify supporters enough to rally around it. 

To me, we should be pushing for fan representation in the macro decision making of the game as per my previous post. Not necessarily enough voting power that fans can effectively veto any proposal but enough that clubs are accountable and have to be transparent and justify why they want to take significant actions such as a conference league or VAR. 

I wouldn't disagree with this either, and I'm aware that this starts to get into the realms of the very boring, but for clubs with fan reps on their boards (Hearts, Motherwell and St. Mirren presumably all do as fan owned? I'm fairly sure a bunch of other clubs do as well?) Then those representatives need to be strong enough to hold their SPFL board representative to account on that front as well as to why they are or are not making decisions.

[Dons_1988]

2 minutes ago, thisGRAEME said:

I wouldn't disagree with this either, and I'm aware that this starts to get into the realms of the very boring, but for clubs with fan reps on their boards (Hearts, Motherwell and St. Mirren presumably all do as fan owned? I'm fairly sure a bunch of other clubs do as well?) Then those representatives need to be strong enough to hold their SPFL board representative to account on that front as well as to why they are or are not making decisions.

I’m a boring b*****d so I’d be interested to know how that works tbh. But couldn’t comment as not sure if the structures for fan representation at those clubs. 

[Swello]

The last time (the only time?) there was a properly unified front (excepting the obvious) that I can remember was when Rangers went into liquidation. It was probably the only demonstrable time where fan pressure caused owners of multiple club owners/CEOs to vote against what they perceived to be their own self interest and make the new Rangers play in the bottom tier of the SPFL (even if plenty of us would have gone further).

The fact it ushered in a time where multiple clubs actually won stuff makes it feel like that was a moment where the supporters knew best and resisted the media propaganda at the time. 

The supporter apathy around VAR and the fact that they got away with putting it in with no consultation was a watershed for me - it basically ended my interest in the "fan ownership" stuff at Motherwell (other than dutifully paying my subs) as they did a sham of a consultation very late in the day with no appetite to be the ones that scuppered it. Any idealistic view I had of the concept of fan ownership was killed by that.

[Monkey Tennis]

Fans are very apathetic.  

I don't think enough get angry about the right things.

Even on this thread, you see a lamenting of the fact that our TV deal feels cheap, or expressing concern over 'quality'.  

Wild economic inequality is the defining feature of our game, and grumbles about anything else are irrelevant.  As fans, I think we're much too accepting of it.

The unity of 2012, feels very distant.

[CityDave94]

3 hours ago, bennett said:

Did anyone else read Question 2 option 2 in a He Man voice?

Only when you mentioned it.

[djchapsticks]

2 hours ago, Dons_1988 said:

There should be fan representation in the SPFL executive or even have some sort of voting power along with clubs. But this will not happen. 

 

If there was it would just be a matter of time before Tory leaning Celtic supporters of social media would be demanding the majority of representation and power among the supporters as they have more supporters going to games than anyone else and shouldnt be answerable or held to same regard as Livi or St. Johnstone fans and it would just devolve into a bunfight. 

[tamthebam]

You could ask Thirds fans in 1967, Meadowbank fans in 1995 and Clydebank fans in 2001 about a feeling of powerlessness.

Does Scottish football actually have a "fit and proper" test for club ownership?