mozam76 Posted October 3, 2023 Share Posted October 3, 2023 I rather naively thought that the VAR only got involved after the “event” - in other words, the on field officials actually refereed the game and the VAR only got involved when asked to check something. So when I read that the VAR is hollering “possible offside Diaz” before he’s even put the ball in the net, that seems mental to me. Can the referee hear everything going on with the VAR officials, as the match is going on? Surely not? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diamonds are Forever Posted October 3, 2023 Share Posted October 3, 2023 1 minute ago, Molotov said: There has been historic cases of “fair play” in North London before in the FA Cup pre VAR. The Spurs (and Liverpool) bench were aware a goal was legitimately scored. The right decision would have been to halt the game. Inform the ref. Who brings both managers and captains together and explain the situation. Big Ange and Son would I’m sure have allowed Liverpool to score a goal unopposed. This could have serious consequences for who wins the title. If Spurs win the title then it will be forever tarnished. I know, and I've explained why they are not comparable. The Arsenal v Sheffield Utd one (which I assume you're referring to) was nothing to do with a refereeing error and the decision to offer a replay was entirely voluntary from Arsenal. Or like Rangers v Partick last year, that was Rangers decision and nothing to do with referees. It's just not the same thing. In the Spurs v Liverpool example you'd have a match official asking/telling a team to deliberately concede a goal, due to an error that the officials made. Asking a team to dig the officials out a hole is totally inappropriate and puts the team in an impossible situation. They'll get abuse from their own fans if they do it, and if they don't will be seen as unsportsmanlike. It also opens a can of worms, can all teams expect referees to ask teams to let in a goal when VAR make more match changing mistakes later in the season? It's a rubbish situation and obviously the 'solution' is to not let it get to that point. But once that point has been reached the responsibility of dealing with it is the match officials, not the players. In the longer term that way of dealing with it would cause more issues than it fixed. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrewDon Posted October 3, 2023 Share Posted October 3, 2023 PGMOL need to change the conversation. They should have released the clip but dubbed that porn noise over it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Molotov Posted October 3, 2023 Share Posted October 3, 2023 1. Stop the clock as per rugby 2. Clear description from ref to VAR re context of decision 3. VAR finds footage and puts it on BIG screen in stadium 4. Ref makes final decision from BIG screen in consult with VAR 5. Ref restarts game. 6. Paying customers in ground feel involved with the process. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pozbaird Posted October 3, 2023 Share Posted October 3, 2023 1 minute ago, DrewDon said: PGMOL need to change the conversation. They should have released the clip but dubbed that porn noise over it. I found Liverpool being the ones shafted by such a disgraceful debacle to be extremely pornographic. No additional soundtrack required. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Todd_is_God Posted October 3, 2023 Share Posted October 3, 2023 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Molotov said: Clear description from ref to VAR re context of decision It was clear. 3 minutes ago, Molotov said: Ref makes final decision from BIG screen in consult with VAR Offside is not a subjective decision therefore the ref has no decision to make. An error has been made due to the desire for speedy decisions. Clubs complained VAR decisions were taking too long. This rushed check for what was a very obvious decision was the result of that. Less obvious checks do take time. The VAR official has interpreted the on-field decision as on-side partially because he doesn't appear to have been paying full attention, but there will also be an element of disbelief that the AR could get it so wrong and therefore his instinct will be that the on-field decision was goal and he's confirming it was onside. Edited October 3, 2023 by Todd_is_God 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salvo Montalbano Posted October 4, 2023 Share Posted October 4, 2023 8 hours ago, Mr. Brightside said: So we're just making resolutions up that are completely against the rules "because only about 30 seconds had passed before the ball went back out of play"? Where in the laws of the game does it say that a referee, manager, coach or player can't allow the opposition to score unopposed? 7 hours ago, Todd_is_God said: It was clear. How was it clear? The VAR said "check complete, check complete, that's fine; perfect". No mention of context or the actual decision to be made . 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted October 4, 2023 Share Posted October 4, 2023 11 hours ago, senorsoupe said: If anything comes from this I hope that they do something similar to what they do in aviation where pilots and Air traffic controllers have an established set of terminology that makes it crystal clear what they mean. In this case the VAR should not be saying simply "check complete" but something like "Check complete, good goal" to make it clear that he thinks the goal should have stood It sounds like they do have air traffic style standard phraseology - albeit to a limited degree - ie you hear him saying “check complete” and that has a clear meaning to the on field referee. The issue is the VAR’s situational awareness was wrong. He thought he was confirming a goal, and it took several nudges from the replay operator to realise he had the wrong end of the stick. A more clear procedure at the start of the check - maybe along the lines of what rugby do where the on field referee will state what the on field decision is and what the parameters of what the VAR is checking - might help. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Todd_is_God Posted October 4, 2023 Share Posted October 4, 2023 35 minutes ago, Salvo Montalbano said: How was it clear? Because the ball wasn't on the centre spot with play ready to restart as it would have been had the decision been a goal. It was where the offside was given with play ready to restart with a Tottenham free kick That someone / multiple people in the VAR room wasn't paying attention to the field of play doesn't in itself mean the on field decision wasn't clear. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salvo Montalbano Posted October 4, 2023 Share Posted October 4, 2023 10 minutes ago, Todd_is_God said: Because the ball wasn't on the centre spot with play ready to restart as it would have been had the decision been a goal. It was where the offside was given with play ready to restart with a Tottenham free kick That someone / multiple people in the VAR room wasn't paying attention to the field of play doesn't in itself mean the on field decision wasn't clear. Why would the VAR, AVAR and replay operator be looking at a live picture of the stadium though? The replay operator was getting the angles and point of contact ready and the VAR and AVAR would be looking at that. The audio from the referee and assistant to the VAR room wasn't 100% clear - it should be obvious from the fact that the linesman said "delaying, delaying" that he thought it was offside, but the referee saying "give it" didn't help (although the linesman did then say "coming back for the offside mate" in fairness). But a clear process would be something like they have in rugby "on field decision is offside - can you check" is cleat and unambiguous, and the VAR replying "check complete - you can award the goal" is the same. One person seems to say "on" but it's not clear if they mean onside or time on or play on or something else. I don't see how there was any part of that process that can be described as clear. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DA Baracus Posted October 4, 2023 Share Posted October 4, 2023 Although it will sadly never happen, VAR needs binned. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Danger Posted October 4, 2023 Share Posted October 4, 2023 Extract from report on the BBC website: Premier League officials being allowed to travel abroad to officiate matches in other leagues will also be reviewed. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigkillie Posted October 4, 2023 Share Posted October 4, 2023 12 hours ago, Musketeer Gripweed said: Fair enough. I assume you have listened to the audio that been released, what do you think the VAR officials should have done after the Hawkeye employee had poined out they had royally messed it up? Also, Do you now think that statement is factually correct after listening to the audio? As you could see from the video, play had already restarted by the time the replay operator noticed the error, so there's not really a great deal the VAR, or anyone else could do at that stage. They could have stopped the game and spoken to people, but they couldn't change the decision at that point. I think the statement is factually accurate though. The goal was disallowed by the on-field officials, and VAR didn't intervene to change that decision. I think this statement was released about 30 minutes after the incident, so it's not clear whether the person who released the statement would even have known what happened. I have no idea how much contact they have with the referees during the game, I certainly don't think they have any discussions with them because that could be influencing the outcome. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigkillie Posted October 4, 2023 Share Posted October 4, 2023 10 hours ago, Musketeer Gripweed said: From what I have read tonight, the referee didn't actually know the goal should have stood until half time, which I find surprising. As far as I'm aware, the ref doesn't hear the discussion that you heard on the audio, they have to press a button to speak to him. Otherwise he'd just constantly have a chirping in his head. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigkillie Posted October 4, 2023 Share Posted October 4, 2023 10 hours ago, RawB93 said: Why does it matter that play had restarted? It was a goal so pull it back. I get that on this occasion nothing happened in the time they played on but that it could in other scenarios - however, is that really any different than if it had been a penalty incident, for example and Spurs go up the other end and score but then it doesn't count because it's pulled back for the penalty? The laws of the game say that once the referee has made a decision and play has restarted, the referee cannot change that decision. The difference in your scenario is that the game hasn't been stopped yet for the referee to have an opportunity to review it. Every incident is checked or reviewed at the next stoppage in play. In this case, play was stopped here after the goal, the check was carried out, and then the referee made a final decision. If you start allowing decisions to be changed again even after the referee has made a final decision, you're creating a scenario where players and supporters never have any certainty about anything. That goal your team scored 2 minutes ago? Maybe they're actually going to go back and disallow it after all. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigkillie Posted October 4, 2023 Share Posted October 4, 2023 10 hours ago, Molotov said: The Spurs (and Liverpool) bench were aware a goal was legitimately scored. I doubt either bench was aware that was the case. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salvo Montalbano Posted October 4, 2023 Share Posted October 4, 2023 3 minutes ago, craigkillie said: I doubt either bench was aware that was the case. The benches all have monitors these days? Pretty sure they show footage from Sky/Premier Productions and they showed the replay (albeit without the lines added, but they weren't necessary in this case). Also seems weird saying the referee didn't know - not that I'm doubting what PGMOL are saying, it's just there did look to be a moment during a stop in play not long afterwards where the referee looked to go a bit pale as if he'd had some bad news. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musketeer Gripweed Posted October 4, 2023 Share Posted October 4, 2023 Yellow card for Mac Allister No yellow card for Udogie Mistakes happen though and I am sure PGMOL are sorry. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salvo Montalbano Posted October 4, 2023 Share Posted October 4, 2023 13 minutes ago, Musketeer Gripweed said: Yellow card for Mac Allister No yellow card for Udogie Mistakes happen though and I am sure PGMOL are sorry. Mistakes do happen. Like calling Curtis Jones Alexis Mac Allister. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
accies1874 Posted October 4, 2023 Share Posted October 4, 2023 22 minutes ago, Salvo Montalbano said: Mistakes do happen. Like calling Curtis Jones Alexis Mac Allister. Or Diogo Jota Curtis Jones... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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